Air Shock Options
- Thread starter tb123
- Start date
Snowmobiling is the only real relevant application. If sport ATVs were still a thing maybe a new entrant could spread R&D costs. I imagine Fox was able to enter sledding easier by repurposing the tech they had from ATVs.
The only other place I see air shocks in abundance is rear MTB shocks. Fox's biggest air shock competitor in that space is solely focused on Bikes.
It's expensive af to develop, expensive for the consumer, and you're going up against Fox's marketing. Most people willing to pay for air shocks will be willing to pay a premium to have something with Fox's name on it (for better or worse)
The only other place I see air shocks in abundance is rear MTB shocks. Fox's biggest air shock competitor in that space is solely focused on Bikes.
It's expensive af to develop, expensive for the consumer, and you're going up against Fox's marketing. Most people willing to pay for air shocks will be willing to pay a premium to have something with Fox's name on it (for better or worse)
For what it’s worth the Fox MTB shock market likely moves 10-20x more shocks than the snowmobile market…….
The live valve concept was in MTB before sleds.
Say a small thanks for the mountain bike community funding R&D.
As @Sheetmetalfab notes, the MTB market has made Fox very successful. Air shocks for our sleds are pretty amazing, and save about 4lbs compared to the stock WE velocity shocks.
Patents may play heavily into the lack of comparable air shock competition in the sled world.
It's telling that Fox isn't involved in the dirt bike market, and comes on very few factory automobiles. They are heavy into the off road world for sxs, ultra, baja, etc.
I'm not aware of any other air shocks for sleds, but let us know if you find some.
Fox pioneered powersports air shocks on dirt bikes in the 1970s and they were the best thing around until reservoir type coils came out. Then they faded away.
Not sure when they started doing them in the MTB world.
They came out on sleds in 2005 with some Arctic Cat sleds coming with them as standard equipment on limited mountain sleds and the 440 snow cross racers along with some aftermarket offerings. The early ones had really small air volumes that were too progressive on spring rate. That resulted in a lot of harshness in the top part of the stroke. They also had a lot of seal friction that hurt initial plushness. Aftermarket answered with lots of add-on air canisters to band-aid them.
They also released monotube units for the front end of sport ATVs during this time. They sponsored John Natalie Jr. in 2005 to campaign the national ATV motocross series and developed the Float X Evol with him. That was the first showing of the Evol chamber that added to the air spring volume to combat excessive spring rate in the last half of the stroke and it was tunable to adjust the bottoming resistance. It also used an internal negative spring to combat the initial friction of the air seal.
Later the Float 2 aftermarket line utilized the negative spring and a new air seal that had less friction to improve plushness. Many versions of the Float X, Float X Evol, Evol R, and base Evol followed. The high flow "Evol style" valving piston was a big step forward compared to the old powder metal piston Fox had used in shocks since the 1990s. High volume seal heads also came about in the aftermarket units that improved the air spring curve. Dual speed compression adjusters became an option on the Gen 2 Float X Evol.
The Float 3 line had valving improvements with the pistons and bleed shim instead of a single bleed hole, the higher volume seal heads and end caps, and brought low friction Kashima coating to the mix. The Tucker Hibbert editions for trail sleds had internal bypass grooves. Kashima coating disappeared during Covid and never came back.
The latest aftermarket shocks got a big revamp a few years ago with lighter weight parts, the internal bypass grooves came back, and everything went to QS3 valving adjustments to make it easier for most users to make adjustments to their shocks. Personally, I like the old compression and rebound adjustments.
I think the continuous innovation and commitment to improvement, Cat as an OEM using lots of Floats over the years to provide R&D money, and top sponsored riders/marketing have kept the Fox air shock line alive. The ease of adjustment with a hand pump is attractive too for rider weight, varying temperature, and snow conditions.
Walker Evans had air shocks on Polaris sleds from about 2007 to ...? I worked on a couple of the monotube versions and they were an emulsion design. Which is low cost and works ok, but not real high performance. I don't know why they disappeared. Maybe just poor performance? If you wanted to change pressure it took a nitrogen needle. Whereas the Fox units could be adjusted with the pump.
Ryde FX had a line of air shocks for a short time. Then they had their 2.0 line with two chambers. Not sure why those didn't work out. Polaris used them for a short bit too. OEM were sealed nitrogen for the spring. Aftermarket came with a hand pump like the Fox. https://snowgoer.com/gear-tests/ryde-fx-air-2-0-shocks/2759/
Team FAST still does their own air shocks in their trail suspensions and has some generic looking front shocks in 16.5', 17.5', and 18.5" lengths. I literally know nothing about them. https://www.teamfast.com/
KYB and Showa both had air forks for dirt bikes in the early 2010s. They had some of the same problems that the Fox floats had with harshness and seal friction. New seals and multiple chambers to adjust cycled through until user complaints killed them off. It is interesting that KYB still has air options available to the top supercross/mx teams where they are willing to check pressures before every ride if they get the performance and feel they are looking for.
WP Air forks on KTM/Husqvarna came out in 2017. They had seal issues and harshness the first year or two as weel. They have been pretty sorted since 2020. They continue to offer spring and air models on production and factory race teams. They fully developed a complex rear air shock and the factory SX team was using it until vibration on the starting line caused Ryan Dungey's to burp air pressure and that was the end of that. Short continued to use it that season, but it's been shelved again now.
So to answer the OPs question: I think it's a lot of work to get air shocks to be plush, reliable, and accepted by the users at a capacity that is profitable. Lots of people like simple things they don't have to fiddle with. Coil shocks need maintenance too to keep top performance, but most people don't care as long as they aren't leaking.
Not sure when they started doing them in the MTB world.
They came out on sleds in 2005 with some Arctic Cat sleds coming with them as standard equipment on limited mountain sleds and the 440 snow cross racers along with some aftermarket offerings. The early ones had really small air volumes that were too progressive on spring rate. That resulted in a lot of harshness in the top part of the stroke. They also had a lot of seal friction that hurt initial plushness. Aftermarket answered with lots of add-on air canisters to band-aid them.
They also released monotube units for the front end of sport ATVs during this time. They sponsored John Natalie Jr. in 2005 to campaign the national ATV motocross series and developed the Float X Evol with him. That was the first showing of the Evol chamber that added to the air spring volume to combat excessive spring rate in the last half of the stroke and it was tunable to adjust the bottoming resistance. It also used an internal negative spring to combat the initial friction of the air seal.
Later the Float 2 aftermarket line utilized the negative spring and a new air seal that had less friction to improve plushness. Many versions of the Float X, Float X Evol, Evol R, and base Evol followed. The high flow "Evol style" valving piston was a big step forward compared to the old powder metal piston Fox had used in shocks since the 1990s. High volume seal heads also came about in the aftermarket units that improved the air spring curve. Dual speed compression adjusters became an option on the Gen 2 Float X Evol.
The Float 3 line had valving improvements with the pistons and bleed shim instead of a single bleed hole, the higher volume seal heads and end caps, and brought low friction Kashima coating to the mix. The Tucker Hibbert editions for trail sleds had internal bypass grooves. Kashima coating disappeared during Covid and never came back.
The latest aftermarket shocks got a big revamp a few years ago with lighter weight parts, the internal bypass grooves came back, and everything went to QS3 valving adjustments to make it easier for most users to make adjustments to their shocks. Personally, I like the old compression and rebound adjustments.
I think the continuous innovation and commitment to improvement, Cat as an OEM using lots of Floats over the years to provide R&D money, and top sponsored riders/marketing have kept the Fox air shock line alive. The ease of adjustment with a hand pump is attractive too for rider weight, varying temperature, and snow conditions.
Walker Evans had air shocks on Polaris sleds from about 2007 to ...? I worked on a couple of the monotube versions and they were an emulsion design. Which is low cost and works ok, but not real high performance. I don't know why they disappeared. Maybe just poor performance? If you wanted to change pressure it took a nitrogen needle. Whereas the Fox units could be adjusted with the pump.
Ryde FX had a line of air shocks for a short time. Then they had their 2.0 line with two chambers. Not sure why those didn't work out. Polaris used them for a short bit too. OEM were sealed nitrogen for the spring. Aftermarket came with a hand pump like the Fox. https://snowgoer.com/gear-tests/ryde-fx-air-2-0-shocks/2759/
Team FAST still does their own air shocks in their trail suspensions and has some generic looking front shocks in 16.5', 17.5', and 18.5" lengths. I literally know nothing about them. https://www.teamfast.com/
KYB and Showa both had air forks for dirt bikes in the early 2010s. They had some of the same problems that the Fox floats had with harshness and seal friction. New seals and multiple chambers to adjust cycled through until user complaints killed them off. It is interesting that KYB still has air options available to the top supercross/mx teams where they are willing to check pressures before every ride if they get the performance and feel they are looking for.
WP Air forks on KTM/Husqvarna came out in 2017. They had seal issues and harshness the first year or two as weel. They have been pretty sorted since 2020. They continue to offer spring and air models on production and factory race teams. They fully developed a complex rear air shock and the factory SX team was using it until vibration on the starting line caused Ryan Dungey's to burp air pressure and that was the end of that. Short continued to use it that season, but it's been shelved again now.
So to answer the OPs question: I think it's a lot of work to get air shocks to be plush, reliable, and accepted by the users at a capacity that is profitable. Lots of people like simple things they don't have to fiddle with. Coil shocks need maintenance too to keep top performance, but most people don't care as long as they aren't leaking.
Ski Shocks — TeamFast
www.teamfast.com
These seem like an excellent option for air shocks . They get glowing reviews and seem very durable.
We've been very happy with the latest version of the FOX Float QS3 shocks. The application seems to be pretty niche with ATV, MTB, Dirtbikes, and snowmobiles. Agreed with "boondocker97" that the variables to develop a high performing air shock while still maintaining profitability is challenging. FOX seems to have nailed it with their air shocks latest version in all aspects.
There isn’t much to be gained weight wise with the floats, depending on what shocks you have now. Aftermarket shocks really only benefit few riders, to most they are just “bling”. Meaning, most mountain riders don’t ride hard enough to take advantage of a good shock, nor do they have any idea how to adjust them properly.
Khaos velocity shocks to QS3 evol floats is 4 pounds weight savings……..
Weight savings will greatly depend on what the shocks are that you are replacing - monotube, velocity, etc.
The most weight savings we've found is on the FOX Float shocks for Lynx that drop almost 11 pounds just for the track shocks alone. And up to 20 pounds for the Shredder RE.
The 3-position adjustment on the FOX shocks make it fool proof to adjust and if a person wanted to change preload they can do so. Although some riders may not have the sensitivity for calibrating shocks, most if not all can definitely tell the difference between a monotube base model shock and a premium brand like FOX Coil or Float.
The most weight savings we've found is on the FOX Float shocks for Lynx that drop almost 11 pounds just for the track shocks alone. And up to 20 pounds for the Shredder RE.
The 3-position adjustment on the FOX shocks make it fool proof to adjust and if a person wanted to change preload they can do so. Although some riders may not have the sensitivity for calibrating shocks, most if not all can definitely tell the difference between a monotube base model shock and a premium brand like FOX Coil or Float.
