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AFTERMARKET SILENCERS (CANS) ON EFI SLEDS... MY THOUGHTS

mountainhorse

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I have been receiving a lot of emails and PM's lately on the topic of aftermarket silencers in EFI 2 stroke snowmobiles... and thought I would put together the replies into one post.

Here are my thoughts with some BASIC tech explanations. This in no way will cover all aspects of the engineering of a modern 2-stroke snowmobile engine/exhaust Here. There are many out there that have a MUCH better understanding of these principles/application than I... MUCH better:face-icon-small-blu... If you have more to add or even contradict in this topic...feel free to post it up along with your reasons/descriptions.

Let me start by saying that I really like aftermarket silencer offerings lately... they drop weight from the sled usually from higher quality materials and construction techniques than the factory can afford to use ...but sometimes from less silencing abilities. (Which is another topic that can be discussed HERE)

When I refer to "Simple addition of a silencer" I am referring to removing the stock silencer and installing a different silencer in it's place with no other changes to the engine or engine controls (eg fuel control boxes, pressure regulators etc)

Many people assume that the computer (ECU/ECM) would make up for any rich/lean condition that may be caused by changing the exhaust.

The fuel injection on ANY of the two strokes (including the E-Tec) is not a closed loop system... It cannot automatically monitor/adjust the fuel/timing.

All the two strokes run, and will probably for some time, what is called "speed Density" control system.... It has a fixed fuel map (the set of instructions that the computer has as it's control mechanism). It monitors such things as intake air temp (IAT) Throttle position (TPS) Coolant temp, crankshaft position, barometric pressure and protective devices like detonation sensors and exhaust temperature (which is often mistakenly thought of as and oxygen sensor). It runs on a specific set of instructions that take into account the information from these sensors and responds in a predetermined way.

If you change something in the system... like modifying the airbox, change the shape/length or type of the tuned exhaust system (which the silencer is part of) or the type of fuel that you are using... the computer will still run the engine according to that predetermined map... the computer (ECU) cannot compensate for changes to the hardware.... (like porting, pipes etc) which is why it is important to match the stock back-pressure very closely when installing an aftermarket can. Now sometimes, the factory has to get a certain pollution component under control like Nitric oxides, carbon monoxide, hydrocarbons etc... and they cannot push the power or get it to meet standards with less back-pressure... BUT more often than not, these days, the factory is not leaving stuff like that on the table.

When simply installing a can adds power on a tuned exhaust on a two stroke engine (evidenced by needing to add clutch weight) this is an indication that it has altered the exhaust characteristics and that changed the way the existing map works on the engine...

Now, if a drop or increase in back-pressure (which is the only thing a silencer can do to effect the performance) increases the power output...it is doing that by giving the exhaust a different state of tune... this affects how the cylinder is scavenged (sucking out the exhaust and unburnt air/fuel mix that is being pulled through the transfer ports and partially out the exhaust before "stuffing" the unburnt fuel back into the cylinder).

If it does this scavenging at a different rate or "timing" this can affect how much fuel is left in the cylinder and therefore the Air/fuel ratio (whether the engine is running lean or rich).

An increase in power could be from leaning the motor out which could be bad if it is done past the engines ability to tolerate a lean burn. OR.. this might just pick up on a margin of power if the factory had to leave something on the table to meet EPA regulations for emissions... There really is no way to know this outside of doing extensive Air/fuel ratio monitoring (piston wash or as actual O2 content in the exhaust stream) and engine teardowns after long term testing (a full season with thousands of miles on sleds in different regions using different riders and different fuels.)

I can say this...EFI has RADICALLY changed the way exhaust mods, including the addition of an aftermarket silencer, work... and affect the overall reliability/durability/power of a given engine.

The days of simply making an exhaust more "free flowing" and "uncorking power" are all but gone. The exhaust system from the engine and out the silencer has to be looked at as a system... a TUNED exhaust system. Heck, even in the old days, changing out the silencer required often that the jetting be changed to accomodate the new setup.

Is it possible that a simple change in silencer can actually ADD power in a durable/reliable way... yes. Is it likely, without causing other issues... Not in my opinion on modern EFI engines without changing/controlling the mapping.

IMO, I believe that more than ever, it is important that the aftermarket silencer, when installed on a stock pipe/engine/control system, has an identical flow rate to the stock silencer. This way.. a lighter/smaller silencer can be had... and even a different exhaust note if you want.

If not flow-matched, extended testing in the field needs to be done to show that this modified exhaust is working within the sleds abilities to cope with the change when you are counting on the sled to get you out of a sticky situation, WFO...Full load, where a tow back to the trailer for new pistons is not an option.

There are some "good" cans out there for sure... just make sure you do your homework and ask questions.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on this...

It will be good conversation.:yo:
















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My crawler has a 350 ramjet engine. It had a MEFI 3 computer that had no air temp sensor in the intake, and no O2 sensor in the exhaust. At higher elevations where I mostly go the dog was always very rich. Caused a few issues and drove me crazy so I did an LS1 conversion with coil packs, new harness, newer gm computer I had tuned while on the dyno, and all the sensors. Runs MUCH better. Bummer that these sleds don't have an O2 sensor.
I just assumed it might have one but if not it wouldn't hurt to lean it out a little for rocky mountain high riding. What do you think Eric. If the mapping is ok for the beach bums near the ocean at low elevation, how does that fit into the speed density efi system for here. I realize I should know this and have probably just not put it together but how do they do mapping that works for both out the door? Please explain how the speed density system compensates for elevation? Is the barometric pressure reading enough? Because mine definitely seemed to run better when the air temp was near or below zero F and the air pressure was higher. Last ride out I could have used the smaller weights with the warmer temperatures and lower air pressure that day.
Also is it just not possible to have an O2 sensor tied to the ecu on a 2 stroke. Thanks by the way for another great thread. Dude you rule.
 
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It would be great if Boondocker's chimed in also about their new 3D mapping. And wasn't one of the other turbo builders doing something similar? If they don't, could you comment on them.
 
Daniel...Thanks for the props!!

The BD 3D system is interesting.

I'm trying to keep this discussion about the addition of a can without the need for any other mods... And what that means on an EFI 2-stroke.

Not trying to be rude and cut you off... It would be a good topic for another thread.












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Understood. Hope to see one.
Also what you have explained makes me for one consider more what SLP has done this year for their exhaust modifications on the pro.
 
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Great questions!

If the mapping is ok for the beach bums near the ocean at low elevation, how does that fit into the speed density efi system for here. I realize I should know this and have probably just not put it together but how do they do mapping that works for both out the door? Please explain how the speed density system compensates for elevation? Is the barometric pressure reading enough? Because mine definitely seemed to run better when the air temp was near or below zero F and the air pressure was higher. Last ride out I could have used the smaller weights with the warmer temperatures and lower air pressure that day.
Also is it just not possible to have an O2 sensor tied to the ecu on a 2 stroke.



Some Oversimplified answers... As I've said above, there are more knowledgeable people than me on this topic....These are just "basic" answers that I'm trying to help with... I think that a super technical discussion would be over the heads of 95% of the readers here so I'd like to keep it basic.

The ECU's have a barometric pressure sensor mounted to them which is actually more valuable than the knowing the actual elevation in feet (knowing the actual ambient oxygen content would be even more valuable)... there is generally a TMAP or TBAP sensor (Temper/Maifold Absolute Pressure or Temp/Baro Air Pressure sensor)

Pressure and other inputs like IAT (intake air temp) allow the the ECU to adjust for that change according to the instructions in it's programming and the "VE table" (Volumetric Efficiency) that has been calculated for the sled...Based on RPM and Throttle Position.

But you will notice that there is NO way for the ECU to know what the exhaust is doing or how the cylinder is actually "burning" fuel (rich or lean)...Therefore the ECU cannot make adjustment for something that it was not programmed to accommodate.

The OEM's try to get as much power from a given engine knowing that that engine needs to be safe and flexible with it's programming... It needs to be able to deal with wide swings in altitude/temperatures/load that owners will put them through and be reliable... both for the owner and for warranty repairs. Which is why the warranty programs have gotten so tight about coverage on anything but a bone-stock motor.

It is possible to get more power out of a motor... but it is often not possible to do so with reliability and still flexible enough to ride in many different conditions.

There are no O2 sensors (AKA lambda sensors) that will reliably tolerate oil in the exhaust stream. Because of this the "confidence" in the information coming from an O2 sensor in an oily 2 stroke exhaust is not good enough for an OEM to put out there... they cannot run a closed loop system and have the reliability and abuse tollerance that they need for a consumer product... There are some closed loop "piggyback' systems like the Auto Tune from Power Commander... but those are designed to be used for tuning only and then have the O2 sensor removed from the exhaust for the majority of running... There are those out there that leave the O2 sensors in the exhaust...but you run the risk of a burndown according to DynoJet... when the sensor gets fouled with oil.
Here is a good primer on Speed Density














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Mountainhorse,

Thanks for "dumbing down" your posts.
I actually got most of them.
Alot of variables that I simply would not have considered.
 
In relation to pipe/silencer setups on our sleds the majority of backpressure is/should be controlled by the stinger (the stinger is not the silencer/can/muffler!) it is welded at the end of the PIPE itself, not what connects to the end of the pipe to quiet noise levels down!!

Altitude plays a major part in this and there is more to be had from tuning backpressure in the pipe (like the old bolt in the pipe trick), silencers shouldnt be any more restrictive than the outlet stinger of the pipe, the reason they are is for noise levels and emmisions IMO.

I would like to see some unbiased 3rd party dyno results testing of silencer designs to test these claims of added hp from a silencer alone
 
Matty.... Good point! ... I hear what you are saying...
Unless the exit of the stinger is at ambient atmospheric pressure... the silencer itself is still part of the equation in relation to backpressure and wave speed in the pipe.

Some cans have longer stinger extensions than others...some cans build back pressure more than others. The stock one has certain amount of backpressure built in... not just from the stinger extension before entering the can.

Heck... look at the Recent dragon updates... the low level kits got a new, lower backpressure silencer from Polaris that changed the way that the sled ran with the new mapping that was programmed into the ECU.

I'd like to see some testing as well... Most of the silencer mfgs dont make any hp claims any longer. Some that have made claims of power added in the past have actually been shown to reduce power if not designed well.

IMO... getting any kind of RELIABLE power gain (if any) from a silencer is a moot point these days. For me it is about weight reduction/size and for some a different exhaust tone.












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on the watercraft tripples, crankshop makes their pipes with 2 diffrent options, low elevation 31mm outlet on the pipe stinger

and a high elevation, 5K and up that has an insert welded on the inside of the stinger of the pipe at 29mm outlet ID everything else stays the same.

On the newer sleds 98% of the game is all about weight IMO, when the consumers are calling the OEM silencers "suitcases" it goes to show the size and weight of these things. EPA regs, emmisions and sound level requirements for manufacturers isnt getting any easier no matter if its automotive, off road or anything nowadays!

HP gain from a silincer by itself, no IMO!

I think you can go the other way in HP and not even know it alot easier, especially by mixing and matching diffrent parts that were never intended to be used with one another, which is rare anymore but still people are doing it!

I think theres still alot to gain from adding just an aftermarket silencer though! better coatings, chaincase access without removing the silencer since they are alot smaller, noise (give and take here), oh yeah, weight, most (not all) easier to take in and out.
 
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In relation to pipe/silencer setups on our sleds the majority of backpressure is/should be controlled by the stinger (the stinger is not the silencer/can/muffler!) it is welded at the end of the PIPE itself, not what connects to the end of the pipe to quiet noise levels down!!

Altitude plays a major part in this and there is more to be had from tuning backpressure in the pipe (like the old bolt in the pipe trick), silencers shouldnt be any more restrictive than the outlet stinger of the pipe, the reason they are is for noise levels and emmisions IMO.

I would like to see some unbiased 3rd party dyno results testing of silencer designs to test these claims of added hp from a silencer alone

This used to be the case years ago but with the new technology as of recent years this is no longer true. The silencer is a significant factor in tunung a complete modern exhaust system. In fact, one minor change can completely change the power curve or reliability of the machine.

MH,
You are on the right track with this. The only corection I would make is VE has less to do wit hit than you would think.

Dustin
 
This used to be the case years ago but with the new technology as of recent years this is no longer true. The silencer is a significant factor in tunung a complete modern exhaust system. In fact, one minor change can completely change the power curve or reliability of the machine.

Dustin

I agree 100% that the silencers on sleds today have way more engineering than in the past, OEM and aftermarket

from the OEM standpoint it isnt about power output though, its all about noise levels, emmisions, cost, reliability (more forgiving and running more consistant with temp and elevation changes), and overall power output is on the back burner IMO

with aftermarket silencers theres alot more to lose than there is to gain from a HP standpoint
 
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I agree 100% that the silencers on sleds today have way more engineering than in the past, OEM and aftermarket

from the OEM standpoint it isnt about power output though, its all about noise levels, emmisions, cost, reliability (more forgiving and running more consistant with temp and elevation changes), and overall power output is on the back burner IMO

with aftermarket silencers theres alot more to lose than there is to gain from a HP standpoint

Noise levels, emissions, cost, reliability are all a priority to the OEM engineers but so is power. Well, it's not so much power as it is the over all performance and power curve theyfocused on, and they focus less on the final Peak horse power number. It seams to be different from each OEM but as I have had the opportunity to deal with many of the engineers, it is interesting to see where they put their design priorities.

Yes, the aftermarket in general has had to focus more on maintaining stock HP numbers when building lightweight silencers in the last few years. We still have the ability to design a lightweight aftermarket silencer that increases horse power, but it isn't as easy as it used to be. This is because of the implementation and advancements in EFI control systems and how exhaust systems have had to be specifically engineered to adjust for these advancements. With all of the new sensors , if the silencer is not tuned just right, it screws up the system, and the exhaust builder or customer wont even know it, and the customer will loose performance over the stock system. Because of this, we now have to use more advanced telemetry and dyno equipment to monitor these systems and make sure the silencer isn't effecting the stock system in a negative way.

This subject is a huge topic, one that would take to much time to get into. I will be doing a few seminars at some of the snow shows and this is something we could get into. Maybe we could do some kind of Q@A. At this point I know I will do one in Salt Lake City and One in Boise and maybe one in Puyalup.

Dustin
 
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TTT for a good topic this time of year.

Until we see MAF sensors/closed loop EFI or some way for the an EFI engine to accomodate changes in the system... a simple silencer change will not improve power and, in many cases, will loose power... everything else the same.

A systematic approach is key to good performance and reliability in a modern sled engine.
 
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