AFR setups and 2 strokes
- Thread starter Dogmeat
- Start date
M
mastertech
Well-known member
Aem is heated.. I run AEM in all my sleds. All true WIDE bands are heated. It helps the sensor get to temp faster and read more accurate and sooner. I run a sled on pump and on 100L AV gas. I get about 2 seasons on a good running 2 stroke sled. On my Leaded set-up I have to usually replace it 3/4 of the year threw.
The first sighn I see of one going souith I replace it. ( Reading slow, taking along time to come alive after start up..etc) If you follow the manufactorers specs and recomendations on mounting, you will have a much better exsperience with a A/F set-up!
The first sighn I see of one going souith I replace it. ( Reading slow, taking along time to come alive after start up..etc) If you follow the manufactorers specs and recomendations on mounting, you will have a much better exsperience with a A/F set-up!
I think i am gonna go ahead with the Koso gage, mainly because it is waterproof and Ive already had some issues with condensation on stuff last year ...
So, as far as mounting on a turbo sled goes .... You want to mount it down stream of the turbo, right?
So, as far as mounting on a turbo sled goes .... You want to mount it down stream of the turbo, right?
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Driveline
New member
I run in Michigan but, I have ran both the Koso and AEM. GO with the AEM. Every time I made a change it showed. I can't say the same for the Koso. The AEM is heated and it has to cycle before you start the sled. I believed and trusted my AEM. If you can't do that, don't just put it on for looks.....
STEVE
STEVE
If the wideband you are looking at is not on this list, I wouldn't even consider it.
Innovate or AEM are the only 2 even worth considering, and the prices have come down considerably since this test was done. Both innovate and AEM offer the wideband controllers integrated into a guage for $199. Innovate is more accurate and is super easy to tel when the sensor fails, I have been using my LM-1 for over 6 years now and just recently upgraded to an LM-2. I have installed probably 20 LC1 setups also. AEM's can be found for around 165 (and that is with a guage mind you) and are pretty damn good for the price as well.
Innovate or AEM are the only 2 even worth considering, and the prices have come down considerably since this test was done. Both innovate and AEM offer the wideband controllers integrated into a guage for $199. Innovate is more accurate and is super easy to tel when the sensor fails, I have been using my LM-1 for over 6 years now and just recently upgraded to an LM-2. I have installed probably 20 LC1 setups also. AEM's can be found for around 165 (and that is with a guage mind you) and are pretty damn good for the price as well.
Thinking of adding an A/F gauge to my 09 XP, question is, where would I mount the sensor?
Anyone that has done an XP if they could post pictures of this it would be greatfully appreciated.
Thanks in advance.
Anyone that has done an XP if they could post pictures of this it would be greatfully appreciated.
Thanks in advance.
Orientation in any 2 stroke is the same. Fat part of the pipe, and not too low. It should be angled up (the wires off the sensor, facing the sky) to avoid sensor damage due to moisture collecting on the sensor when its not in use.
I havn't seen anything that says or shows the exact position in the fat part of the pipe, but I try and go right about in the middle of the widest section..
I havn't seen anything that says or shows the exact position in the fat part of the pipe, but I try and go right about in the middle of the widest section..
I have tried several different positions on 2 strokes. From the first bend in the pipe, fat part of pipe and even after the stringer. Had the same AFR in every spot. This was on a 2007 SDI 1000.
One thing to remember about AFR is that is engineered around pump gas. So when using Race Fuel or Av Gas the Specific Gravity Changes so the AFR you are going to be tuning to will be different than pump gas. Specifically it changes the Stoichiometric number of this fuel. This is defined at the hardware level of the gauge.
This is why I like to use EGT's rather than AFR. I will be install an AFR gauge just to see what I get for reading versus my EGTs. I'm going to go with Innovate's MTX-Gauge, easy install and reads a wider range.
One thing to remember about AFR is that is engineered around pump gas. So when using Race Fuel or Av Gas the Specific Gravity Changes so the AFR you are going to be tuning to will be different than pump gas. Specifically it changes the Stoichiometric number of this fuel. This is defined at the hardware level of the gauge.
This is why I like to use EGT's rather than AFR. I will be install an AFR gauge just to see what I get for reading versus my EGTs. I'm going to go with Innovate's MTX-Gauge, easy install and reads a wider range.
Is there any setup out there that has any sort of longevity to it?
I'm kind of tired burning my knuckles trying to take plug readings on my M sled
I would like to have something that just tells me where I'm at, but nearly everyone I've talked to says AFR gages are lucky to read properly past the first ride due to oil being burned in a 2 stroke...
Is there any setup out there, perhaps a heated sensor setup, that will work with any kind of longevity on a 2 stroke sled?
I have 2 years on a single Koso sensor and 300 turbo miles with no problems.
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going on my third year with the koso..i have the toggle...if it doesn;t come on clean at first i toggle it off and then toggle it on a minute later..
Chris,
What is your confidence level in the partial closed loop mode running the AFR on the Gen 3.5 box. On a TWO Stroke sled. (Bosch controller on a Bosch sensor)
Would this be "rock solid" on a 2 stroke or would the owner have to worry about the system kicking into limp home/default mode??
Lots of the turbo setups run the two big "No No's" of the Bosch lambda sensor.. Oil and tetra-ethly lead... Two stroke sounds like a tough environment for this to run in.
Thoughts??
.
What is your confidence level in the partial closed loop mode running the AFR on the Gen 3.5 box. On a TWO Stroke sled. (Bosch controller on a Bosch sensor)
Would this be "rock solid" on a 2 stroke or would the owner have to worry about the system kicking into limp home/default mode??
Lots of the turbo setups run the two big "No No's" of the Bosch lambda sensor.. Oil and tetra-ethly lead... Two stroke sounds like a tough environment for this to run in.
Thoughts??
.
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... Two stroke sounds like a tough environment for this to run in.
Thoughts??
.[/QUOTE]
There are a couple different ways for us (Dobeck Performance) to be able to close loop a sled. We can read in a 0-5 Volt analog signal from Innovate, AEM, Wego, Dynojet, etc. All these AFR solutions give you a range on your 0-5 volt output. We have been testing this for many years on 4 stroke and 2 strokes. Justin Silber ran it at the end of last year for a couple of months. Aerocharger has been doing some testing with it over the summer. Those would be 2 of Private Labels that will be offering closed loop option this year.
Now for failures.....i'm not going to sugar coat it. You are 100% correct with leaded fuels will reduce the life of the sensor. When mounting the sensor you want it to be between 9:30 and 2:30 clock positions. When there is a failure from the sensor most of the aftermarket gauges will give you a 0.0-0.5V or 4.5-5.0V signal to indicate the sensor has failed. Our controller will then default to the last known good value. So say it took 20% fuel add to get the AFR 13:1 and then your sensor fails. The controller will go to the default value of 20% add. So it should never leave you stranded or ruin your day of riding. Everyone should know that they can get replacement sensors from Napa or any local auto parts store. The bosch number for the sensor we are using is part number 17018. This is the sensor that uses a cam lock. They cost $61.99 retail at Napa. The Bosch number for the sensor that is shaped like a D, that innovate uses is a 17014. They cost is $81.49 at Napa.
I don't believe that anyone is using a bosch controller and bosch sensor other than some standalones. We developed our own Wideband controller that i'm hoping to stick in an enclosure with our Gen 3.5 this year. It will just be testing this year and maybe a mid season release. The one downfall about the double stack enclosure is we don't have a good way to display the AFR yet. I'm currently working on a solution for this.
Chris,
Thanks for the good reply.
I spoke with Dallas last week for about 30 min... said you will be using the Bosch controller chip with your AFR gauge with some controls on the gauge itself... and that that gauge can be piggybacked onto the Gen 3.5 boxes.
For the Two strokes, Dallas said he was excited about an altitude compensation/senor loop in the 3.5 boxes in the near future which could give more consistent peroformance in a broad range of conditions compared to the current setups.
When I spoke with Brad at Aerocharger this morning, he said that they will not be running the partial closed loop in their kits because they will need to have it running in a lot of kits, besides a single closed loop proto, before releasing it to the public. He said that they had this function/setup all last year though and will continue to see if it will work in their system.
If the AFR Gauge controller reads a lambda sensor "fail".. . The user could change the sensor in the field if you have one ... if not...
What would be the effect on the state of tune of the engine and performance when the box adds more fuel?
Does the gen 3.5 box add more fuel across the entire RPM band?
At that point, can you "toggle off" the partial closed loop mode?
At that point, what is involved to program the box in the field to get back to a non "limp home" setting so that your sled will not run rich and perform well in all conditions that day until you can get a new sensor in the sled? (ie, would you be "tinkering" with it for a while)
How much riding is necessary for the sled to "recalibrate" itself once the new Sensor is in the sled?
Thanks for your time... it's great having a Dobeck tech on these forums!!
.
Thanks for the good reply.
I spoke with Dallas last week for about 30 min... said you will be using the Bosch controller chip with your AFR gauge with some controls on the gauge itself... and that that gauge can be piggybacked onto the Gen 3.5 boxes.
For the Two strokes, Dallas said he was excited about an altitude compensation/senor loop in the 3.5 boxes in the near future which could give more consistent peroformance in a broad range of conditions compared to the current setups.
When I spoke with Brad at Aerocharger this morning, he said that they will not be running the partial closed loop in their kits because they will need to have it running in a lot of kits, besides a single closed loop proto, before releasing it to the public. He said that they had this function/setup all last year though and will continue to see if it will work in their system.
If the AFR Gauge controller reads a lambda sensor "fail".. . The user could change the sensor in the field if you have one ... if not...
What would be the effect on the state of tune of the engine and performance when the box adds more fuel?
Does the gen 3.5 box add more fuel across the entire RPM band?
At that point, can you "toggle off" the partial closed loop mode?
At that point, what is involved to program the box in the field to get back to a non "limp home" setting so that your sled will not run rich and perform well in all conditions that day until you can get a new sensor in the sled? (ie, would you be "tinkering" with it for a while)
How much riding is necessary for the sled to "recalibrate" itself once the new Sensor is in the sled?
Thanks for your time... it's great having a Dobeck tech on these forums!!
.
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Yes you can just change the sensor if you have a spare with you. Our wideband controller doesn't require a recalibration cause we use the Bosch interface IC. Where an Innovate or AEM would require a recalibration which is easy to do and can be done in the back country without any issues.
The Gen 3.5 is a box that has the ability to add or remove fuel with reference to RPM/Load/Boost/etc. Just depends on the code that is inside the controller. Every Private Label (Pure Logic, Silber, Aerocharger, etc) will all have different code.
If you are using Gen 3.5 with an Aftermarket AFR gauge you can just unplug the wire going to controller and it will default to the open loop code. This doesn't require the user to reprogram the controller.
If you are using our Wideband controller you can just unplug the sensor and it will default to an open loop code.
Our wideband controller you will not have to ride the sled around for it to relearn. It will be ready to go with a new sensor. The aftermarket AFR systems are the same once you recalibrate the sensor.
EX. Innovate requires a free air calibration. This is easily done but just powering up the gauge with the sensor out of the exhaust. Then it will tell you when it is calibrated. Once calibrated you just reinstall the sensor and you are good to go.
I hope this isn't too confusing.
The Gen 3.5 is a box that has the ability to add or remove fuel with reference to RPM/Load/Boost/etc. Just depends on the code that is inside the controller. Every Private Label (Pure Logic, Silber, Aerocharger, etc) will all have different code.
If you are using Gen 3.5 with an Aftermarket AFR gauge you can just unplug the wire going to controller and it will default to the open loop code. This doesn't require the user to reprogram the controller.
If you are using our Wideband controller you can just unplug the sensor and it will default to an open loop code.
Our wideband controller you will not have to ride the sled around for it to relearn. It will be ready to go with a new sensor. The aftermarket AFR systems are the same once you recalibrate the sensor.
EX. Innovate requires a free air calibration. This is easily done but just powering up the gauge with the sensor out of the exhaust. Then it will tell you when it is calibrated. Once calibrated you just reinstall the sensor and you are good to go.
I hope this isn't too confusing.
Chris... I understand that part... is there a second tier default program with the 3.5 box?
If you loose a sensor, and dont have a spare O2 sensor on you... you have the open loop code to back up on... you say 20% richer... would a sled perform up to performance expectations with that? Or, if the rider wanted to "dial her in" for a weekend of use without the O2 sensor/partial closed loop setup...what would then be involved for the rider to adjust the fuel settings for optimal performance without it???
Does Dobeck outright endorse the gen 3.5 box with your AFR/controller setup in partial closed loop mode for use in 2 stroke snowmobiles and/or turbo sleds that run race/100LL?
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So the way the code works is if our controller sees any failure from the Oxygen Sensor there is a default value that will be use to fuel the sled. The 20% add was just an example. This can be anything but it will be based off the open loop tune up. The Private Label can define this default value base on their code.
So take Justin Silber for an example. He has ran open loop all last year. So he knows what settings the box needs. Now he wants to run closed loop. So we would close loop in the red zone and require boost to start to close loop. We know what value of Red (main jet) he needed last year to achieve a good tune up under boost. So we would put this value in for a default. So that if the Oxygen Sensor fails it will then go to this value and run like his Open Loop tune up. There will be settings for closed loop running and another set of setting in case the O2 fails. It will probably be just increasing your boost fuel a couple of light settings.
There will still be the 6 modes but cause you Oxygen Sensor has failed you will not be able to adjust your red zone. That is a fixed amount of fuel now. So you still have the other 5 modes to dial your sled but you would have to be checking EGTs or Spark Plugs cause you have no Air/Fuel.
We would endorse our Gen 3.5 to be used with aftermarket AFR setups right now. Dobeck's Wideband solution has only been released to the Harley world right now.
I will be testing our Wideband Solution this year and so will many of our private labels. Depending on the Winter, Dobeck's Wideband may be available at the first of the year. I just want to check to make sure our enclosure will ok for various extremes(temperature, snow, wrecks and of course rolling over). Yes i will be going to the top of a hill and rolling my sled down the hill to make sure the enclosure doesn't break or open.
So take Justin Silber for an example. He has ran open loop all last year. So he knows what settings the box needs. Now he wants to run closed loop. So we would close loop in the red zone and require boost to start to close loop. We know what value of Red (main jet) he needed last year to achieve a good tune up under boost. So we would put this value in for a default. So that if the Oxygen Sensor fails it will then go to this value and run like his Open Loop tune up. There will be settings for closed loop running and another set of setting in case the O2 fails. It will probably be just increasing your boost fuel a couple of light settings.
There will still be the 6 modes but cause you Oxygen Sensor has failed you will not be able to adjust your red zone. That is a fixed amount of fuel now. So you still have the other 5 modes to dial your sled but you would have to be checking EGTs or Spark Plugs cause you have no Air/Fuel.
We would endorse our Gen 3.5 to be used with aftermarket AFR setups right now. Dobeck's Wideband solution has only been released to the Harley world right now.
I will be testing our Wideband Solution this year and so will many of our private labels. Depending on the Winter, Dobeck's Wideband may be available at the first of the year. I just want to check to make sure our enclosure will ok for various extremes(temperature, snow, wrecks and of course rolling over). Yes i will be going to the top of a hill and rolling my sled down the hill to make sure the enclosure doesn't break or open.
P
paulharris
Well-known member
not sure how innovate made it to the top of that chart. My innovate was a complete P.O.S. worked for a few hours and it was junk. Search innovate around this forum and you will find very few people who actually have a innovate that works. AEM is Good
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Innovate has had their issues in the past, but all their new stuff is pretty nice. Keep in mind also that chart is based on ACCURACY of the wideband, they were not long term tests. If you care about accuracy of the meter (I can't imagine not caring though) they are the most accurate you can buy without spending a whole lot more money.
With that said, I also really like the AEM stuff, seems to be pretty robust and you can usually find them cheaper the the innovate series
With that said, I also really like the AEM stuff, seems to be pretty robust and you can usually find them cheaper the the innovate series
