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A turbo logic session

Skidooinit, in your opinion, does a bigger turbo create less vacuum off boost, thus less lag?

Is the spool time / inertia of the larger turbo overcome by "less" vacuum?

I know there is no simple answer to my question, but am interested in your explanation. Clearly you have your own theory's/facts so lets hear them. Your like the younger version of Gus (and I mean that as a compliment), and hopefully more willing to explain your beliefs in a direct manner. I am sure you are full of great information that you have actually tested in the field. Its cool seeing all the killer builds you are pumping out!
 
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I guess, from first glance, a stock sled/ecu fueling goes braaap and takes of WOT from idle no issues. has a HUGE airbox and nothing plugging the pipe. Also, on many NA sleds i have seen that went to small wire gauze metal topped pods, SUPRISE, they developed a low end rich bog... interesting. The two stroke motor CANNOT pull much vaccum. its a really low efficiency pump. a 4stroke can pull a lot more vaccum thus fight a lot harder to try and fill itself while a 2 stroke will just pull with its measly few inches of vaccum and if it cant, then you get minimal cylinder fill and terrible volumetric efficiency.

SOOO now we want a turbo, cool, kick as top end is fun, keeping the bottom is a different story we all fight with. so looking at order of operations, the motor needs to burn air/fuel to make exhaust heat/pressure to spool the turbo. For the motor to burn air/fuel mixture, it needs a steady supply of both. fuel is no issue, we have more then we need at the push of a button on a controller or a keystroke on a standalone. most people DO NOT have enough air. You stab the throttle, the motor in 2-4 revolutions (damn near instantly) has completely exhausted the air cavity known as charge tube/airbox, now it has to draw air in across the compressor wheel with almost no vacuum. best way i can describe this is a person with asthma(poor pump) trying to run breathing thru a coffee straw(restrictive intake). now your motor cant pump enough air so adds to much fuel making for a poor, undersized burn creating minimal exhaust heat and pressure, which results in a slow spool, and until the threshold is met where this small fire drives the turbo to a point where it is no longer restricting the intake, couple this with a restriction on the tuned pipe molesting the pumping efficiency even more, we have lag, bog, goating, etc. no fun

Now lets look at ways to combat this. the motor needs unrestricted air flow to rev freely when asked for instant and quick response, or at least until the turbo is lit up and can force it through. SO, we have a couple of options, BIG airbox, BIG charge tube, large blow off valves open at idle, vaccum operated doors, bigger compressor wheel turbos, etc. more resivour of air, and less restriction, we need to work from the intake to the exhaust side for tuning as that is how the air is working.

as for the exhaust/turbine side. we cannot restrict the exhaust unnecessarily, again this pump(2stroke) sucks, so if you restrict the outlet, you get less flow, slower response, etc. ideally, if we can run a relatively large turbine wheel with a tight AR housing, this way we get good flow levels, but we direct the exhaust at high speeds at the tips of the exhaust wheel(read leverage). This way we are utilizing the low rpm exhaust energy to its fullest in converting heat to mechanical energy, aka spool.

If we get this all rocking together, we have a motor that revs like a stocker, and pulls like a turbo. and makes big torque all the way across resutling in a super fun sled to ride.



any more questions??? lol/
 
So what if you have a secondary intake, similar to SLP's powder valves to allow for unrestricted intake until you build enough exhaust energy to spool the turbo to a point that can properly feed the intake? Your motor will still create a vacuum in the intake after it usues up the air supply, but once the pressure goes below atm, the secondary intake opens until a positive pressure is restored by the turbo...? just thinking out loud...
 
exactly the kinda stuff im talking about.

I have seen a setup rigged up on a doo using the rave controll system that holds a 4x4" door in the airbox open until like 6k then it slams shut, a little more on/off then i like but it revs quick and then sudden boost hard.
 
as for the exhaust/turbine side. we cannot restrict the exhaust unnecessarily, again this pump(2stroke) sucks, so if you restrict the outlet, you get less flow, slower response, etc. ideally, if we can run a relatively large turbine wheel with a tight AR housing, this way we get good flow levels, but we direct the exhaust at high speeds at the tips of the exhaust wheel(read leverage). This way we are utilizing the low rpm exhaust energy to its fullest in converting heat to mechanical energy, aka spool.

any more questions??? lol/

Questions / Comments

-Seeing we have low exhaust energy at low RPM, would it not be benificial to increase our exhaust energy into the turbine via venturi effect...? Amplifying our energy more , instead of just using whats coming at it...

-Leverage is great if we have a large pressure differential, do we have this when we are trying to light the sucker and get it going?

-We only have X ammount of energy coming at our turbine, would it be better having X ammount of energy directed at a Heavier 60mm wheel (.64) or X ammount of energy at a Lighter 54mm wheel (.64)?
 
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Sorry but energy is derived from the heat energy in the exhaust. The work done on the turbine shaft is equal to the change in enthalpy across the turbine multiplied by the mass flow rate. It has nothing to do with the kinetic energy of the flow.

Yes, the faster the exhaust gasses travel across the turbine, the higher the mass flow rate and thus more energy is transfered - but that doesn't have anything to do with kinetic energy.

um... I couldn't explain it in fancy terms, so I copied that from one of my turbo, "engineering/science manuals". :face-icon-small-win

So some fancy pants mechanical engineer with more degrees than I have brain cells left wrote it. I would tend to side with him. That's not the only one I have that discus's kinetic energy either. :face-icon-small-con
 
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exactly the kinda stuff im talking about.

I have seen a setup rigged up on a doo using the rave controll system that holds a 4x4" door in the airbox open until like 6k then it slams shut, a little more on/off then i like but it revs quick and then sudden boost hard.

a set of reeds in the back of a air box will do the same trick. that's a old, old practice, I don't know if it got lost over the years or it just was not that effective. I have lost a lot of hair and gained a bunch of grey since then.

-We only have X ammount of energy coming at our turbine, would it be better having X ammount of energy directed at a Heavier 60mm wheel (.64) or X ammount of energy at a Lighter 54mm wheel (.64)?

in non-scientific terms or conclusions. Through some testing it seems like the larger wheel is more effective. It takes more revolutions for the smaller wheel to push the same amount of air.

It can be very hard to believe when the bulk of kit builders say smaller gives you better spool up.
 
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a set of reeds in the back of a air box will do the same trick. that's a old, old practice, I don't know if it got lost over the years or it just was not that effective. I have lost a lot of hair and gained a bunch of grey since then.

I have yet to try this, but the concept is there alongside a few other techniques


in non-scientific terms or conclusions. Through some testing it seems like the larger wheel is more effective. It takes more revolutions for the smaller wheel to push the same amount of air.

It can be very hard to believe when the bulk of kit builders say smaller gives you better spool up.


As far as the wheel, the results i have seen (coupled with other gains) are the larger tight housing produces better power overall then a small wheel with open housings.

As far as kits go, similar concept as OEM's apply. its not always about whats perfect, but what is good for production, affordable, and best bang for buck.
 
in non-scientific terms or conclusions. Through some testing it seems like the larger wheel is more effective. It takes more revolutions for the smaller wheel to push the same amount of air.

It can be very hard to believe when the bulk of kit builders say smaller gives you better spool up.

That statement would be true for the compressor wheel, but were talking about turbine, and turbo spool not over flow.
You want the greatest pressure differential across the turbine, that's why you here all the talk least ammount of backpressure post turbo...
 
You want the greatest pressure differential across the turbine, that's why you here all the talk least ammount of backpressure post turbo...

Very true, BUT, the kicker is maintaining the highest pressure ratio, WHILE, keeping your drive pressure ratio at a low level (not plugging up the exhaust)

this is the part that makes the 2 stroke so damn challenging, on a 4 stroke we can just put a tight exhaust housing on and force it throught to get spool with a lot more drive pressure and not affect performance. keeping a pressure differential with almost nothing in the pipe means big *** short downpipes... yes they are usually loud, but i have yet to find anything that helps quite like them.

I really just want a data logger with maybe 20 tmap sensors to plug in all over the sled and monitor while riding.
 
Even a stock high output 2-smoker will be tuned for x amount of pressure in the pipe
 
Even a stock high output 2-smoker will be tuned for x amount of pressure in the pipe
indeed it is! I have run a pressure gauge on a stock motor/exhaust and monitored it for a few rides, its interesting to see how it looks before we go and slap a turbo on it.

another thing i have been around a little, but not had a lot of time to experiment with is the possability of larger diameter stingers on the pipe while using the turbo to create the backpressure but now we have increased flow on the top end...

the possabilities are endless. glad everyone is participating so awesome in this dialogue. getting my mind running wild!!!
 
Very true, BUT, the kicker is maintaining the highest pressure ratio, WHILE, keeping your drive pressure ratio at a low level (not plugging up the exhaust)

Ya I was just referring to the spool side of things... Once your spooled tap a line in to your pipe to take a reading, once you have that information for X ammount of boost you are running, set your pipe up for minimum acceptable backpressure to achieve your max VE.
Proper designed downpipe plays a role in this but it takes more work/money ,
Not all turbo company's are intrested in that , some wanna be the biggest and some wanna be the best.
 
nothing in the pipe means big *** short downpipes... yes they are usually loud, but i have yet to find anything that helps quite like them.

how big?

crap, your going to have me jump sizes on every piece of pipe in my sled this summer....
 
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I did a couple m1000s with 30 series .86 garretts, external waist gates a few years ago and increased the outlet on the pipe by about 3mm on one. Comparing the two the larger outlet did seem to have good top end and once it got into boost the needle on the gauge was just a blur it built boost way faster than the stock size outlet. The boost thresh hole was about the same on both sleds. The configuration of the waist gates were different as well and the stock outlet sled has a water to air set up.
 
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restricting ex flow is bad.
stock stinger size is so far off its almost funny for those who already know it.

Glad to see some of you guys are still thinking and not just blindly following failures. When you catch up to where I am now it will scare you as to how far off the kits on the market really are.

Back when christ was an infant,, reeds and pressure controlled doors were in vogue on the intake side,, then some of us realized where the lost airflow was to be found and now we realize the old door idea was a band aid to a poor design.

tbbt was also a big favorite with merc when we did their turbo project. that too showed promise until ,,,,, well you will see it as well as we did as long as you keep thinking and trying different ideas and methods of your own.


always keep in mind the bmep of the engine you are working with AND compare it too the bmep of the engines of old. The world of the poor leaky inefficient 2 stroke has evolved into a very wide curved semi effiecient engine.

dyno corrections do NOT take boost pressure into account so boost has NO bearing on dyno data or corrected power numbers displayed. IF your operator is telling you he should use it he is on fantasy island along with MR> roark!

Like a measureing tape,a dyno is dead on accurate for the procedures and operations used by the facility. OPERATORS, and the people who assemble the particular dyno room brake assy and couplings make the difference.
dynos dont over achieve or act stingy ( love those coliqueal terms ).

friction, misalignment, failing or close to failure bearings and out of true cranks make for wild swings in outcomes from different dyno sources. Instead of poo poo ing a dyno that contstantly reads higher than the ohter,, poo poo the low reading facility for not doing due dilligence and making the test facility as perfect ( friction free and misalignment free) as can be.

Roush uses only 1 external dyno in the world because THAT facility is almost as perfect as their own...almost.. Roush's and Gibbs facilitys are direct copies of Jims. just with bigger budgets and more precise useage.

air makes boost, nothing more . no dense air in, less waste air out.

the more you guys learn the more you see why belt driven chargers have a limit of range on a 2 stroke. they lack the 1 almighty reason you cant get over the hurdle.. load driven . cant work without load. you dont have any load ( work ) being done on one side of your super leaky engine..


do some bearing research, ask your f a g bearing supplier what the rpm rating is of those isoflex filled sealed bearings , then understand why doo has the issues they doooooo..if your really nosey ask skf and torrington etc etc. your eyes will open and you will understand. oooof
 
Wow, really good stuff.

Can one of you explain if it is correct that the heat of the exhaust is doing the work to spin the compressor and not the velocity of the flow of exhaust gas?

When I read that above I really didn't understand it at all.
 
Wow, really good stuff.

Can one of you explain if it is correct that the heat of the exhaust is doing the work to spin the compressor and not the velocity of the flow of exhaust gas?

When I read that above I really didn't understand it at all.
the heat creates the flow, its thermodynamics. i honestly cant explain it without advising maybe a quick couple classes at your local college!
 
Wow, really good stuff.

Can one of you explain if it is correct that the heat of the exhaust is doing the work to spin the compressor and not the velocity of the flow of exhaust gas?

When I read that above I really didn't understand it at all.


Simply put what is spinning your turbo is pressurized exhaust, hot exhaust takes up more area than if it was cold, so there is more volume to it. When it gets to your turbo the velocity is dictated by the A/R of the hot side of the turbo, a smaller A/R is a smaller opening for it to get through before it gets to the turbine. A smaller A/R will yield a higher velocity hitting the tubine wheel but also create more pressure in the exhaust before the turbo.
 
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