09 XP 154 Wont hold RPM

[MOSKIDOO]

Loss

read around a bit more on this.....i am having same issue..after talking and reading...............they say the higher compression heads..14:1 can lose rpm due to the motor building pressure sooner and therefore hitting peak around 78-7900r's....another cookie to throw into the jar././..

 

[JohnnyH]

Mike at Wellers is a great guy. I dont think they have done any 860's though, so he may not be too much help there, but he is a top notch doo mechanic. I would make sure your primary is in perfect shape, rollers, pins, bushings, etc. Just for kicks install a rubber or teflon washer under the deto sensor next time you ride and see if it fixes it. I know a number of guys who have had similar problems and it was the deto sensor.
I have never run DJ's stuff so I dont know what to tell you there. Problem is you have no idea what springs, helix and ramps you have in that kit. So its hard to give advice if its a clutch set up problem.

I am going to have a talk with the tool man about a digital caliper and some bore gauges.

I have only seen the DET light go off once on the first tank of fuel, but I picked up a washer on the way home today anyway.

The only mystery on the 09 DJ Mtn kit is the helix, other than that is is stock ramps, (441) stock secondary spring, a new 160/350 Primary spring and a Magic Helix. I dont think ( right now anyway ) that there is a problem with DJ's stuff or RKT's stuff, just one or more of the problems listed above.

read around a bit more on this.....i am having same issue..after talking and reading...............they say the higher compression heads..14:1 can lose rpm due to the motor building pressure sooner and therefore hitting peak around 78-7900r's....another cookie to throw into the jar././..

This is not a issue of spinning peak RPM (that is fine on a low snow load)
but more holding peak RPM.

http://www.dootalk.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=298169&st=0#entry2249059

^^^GREAT READ!!! Thanks LRD

 

[Original Tetonice]

RPM Issue = Primary Clutch Issue.

 

[Dynamo^Joe]

@JohnnyH - Let's say everything fine with the engine and clutch wear parts.
High system temperatures is from an Over or Under rev.

On the hard pack it will only pull 8100 on clicker 4
-You are missing out on 100 rpms.
weight would be slight too heavy. Remove 1/2 gram.

a good climb it will drop to 7700-7400.
-Again weight is probably too heavy. Start by removing 1/2 gram and this could allow the engine to grind past that 7800 torque point and allow you to run higher rpms.

If 1 gram = approx 150~200 rpms under full throttle, Then reduce by at least 1/2 a gram.

I've even had guys who run clicker 5 with a bit more pinweight in the snow and still rpms correct on the traveling on the road.

If you email me
dynamo-joe@shaw.ca
Through the answering of a few questions, its probably a simple change to correct the rpms.

-------------------------
The knock sensor only reduces rpms momentarily until you reduce rpms and the code auto-reset.
Once rpms are reduced, you let off the throttle, code clear then can run on the throttle again.

If you have an engine calibration that hits the knock sensor, there is a good chance that you probably will be driving on the road/trail. Find the throttle position the engine hits the knock sensor, you slow down and it resets.

Then you drive for a distance with throttle position just under the knock sensor and now see higher than normal coolant temperature...
...in fact you keep driving just under the knock sensor the coolant temp gets high enough to sound the alarm on the dash.

As you get up in elevation the knock sensor will not alarm anymore and coolant temp will return to normal.
or
Add a 1/3 tank of your fave available race fuel to cool the engine down.

-------------------------
The 413/414/415 ramps in an xp summit may cause anyone who has stock clutching or any vendor's clutch kit to observe 2 symptoms. High rpms on the road or low rpms in the snow - unless the clicker is changed to compensate for it. - unless the fave dial-a-helix angle is changed. In the end you've spent 2 minutes to re-calibrate.

In 2008 season, tuners have tested every "available ramp" under the sun and whatever secondary spring that can be dreamed up, however the 413/XP needs a completely different (not a ramp available as such in 2008) to push properly.
I tell guys right off the bat in emails or phone with that 413 ramp you have to clicker down on the road to travel and back up to 4 in the snow to which is why in March 08 I started working on a completely new ramp.

@Steelhead Slayer
Your 08 has 413 ramps.
How about this for a test then.

Park your 2 sleds at the bottom of your favorite hill, and switch governor cups from your 09 and put it on your 08 with my clutch kit. Take your 08 cup and put it on your 09 and go for another run.
Or
Trade ramps from your 09 and put them in your 08, take your 08 ramps and put them in the 09.

With my kit, the 441's are an improvement vs. the 413/414/415 in an xp sled.
In the spring of 08, I figured with the reverse helix that BRP would be putting in a 410 or 412 or 417 to which is why I started to make my own ramp thinking those series was the wrong way to go.

 

[Original Tetonice]

@JohnnyH - Let's say everything fine with the engine and clutch wear parts.
High system temperatures is from an Over or Under rev.

On the hard pack it will only pull 8100 on clicker 4
-You are missing out on 100 rpms.
weight would be slight too heavy. Remove 1/2 gram.

a good climb it will drop to 7700-7400.
-Again weight is probably too heavy. Start by removing 1/2 gram and this could allow the engine to grind past that 7800 torque point and allow you to run higher rpms.

If 1 gram = approx 150~200 rpms under full throttle, Then reduce by at least 1/2 a gram.

I've even had guys who run clicker 5 with a bit more pinweight in the snow and still rpms correct on the traveling on the road.

If you email me
dynamo-joe@shaw.ca
Through the answering of a few questions, its probably a simple change to correct the rpms.

Joe......If everything is fine with the engine and clutch wear parts.....Your rpm should peak at 8100 to 8200 on the road or on the hill and you should not have to open your hood to change clickers or swap out govener cups or ramps.......If your at 8100 on the road and 7400 to 7700 on the hill your clutching is messed up somewhere.

Curious to know if anyone out there riding is swapping govner cups and or ramps while riding.

I got to hand it to you Joe that some pretty funnt stuff. ... By the way rather than suggesting race gas to cool the motor you might try a product call "water wetter" which is a product used by "top fuel drag racer" to keep internal engine temps cool.

Using your clickers to tune your sled is a bad idea.

OT

 

[Truckeedoo]

my sled rips when cool, after 15 minutes or less of riding in the deeper stuff the rpms start dropping from 8200 to 8000. Once I let it cool it works again. I have the 377 belt. It is getting SUPER hot, I can't adjust the clickers until they have cooled for 30 minutes or so. It's getting far too much heat, my dealer has adjusted and cleaned the clutches a few times.

Is this a clutching issue a heat issue or a combo of both?? I am taking my sled to the dealer in a few weeks to get some stuff done before my warranty expires in towards the end of March. My odometer resets back to zero almost everytime I shut the sled off, doesn't really matter, but it's still annoying.

i have a little slp vent in front of the clutch and 2 in the airbox, but nothing for the clutches or up higher.

 

[Original Tetonice]

Lets face it deep snow applies the most load and stress to the 800R motor and TRA Clutch. Adding a clutch vent kit will help alot at displacing heat....Will it stop the heat ? No

A rubber drive belt sqweezed on both side by metal will get hot.


Rub your hands together for 30 seconds while applying pressure. What do you feel ?

OT

 

[JohnnyH]

Rub your hands together for 30 seconds while applying pressure. What do you feel ?

OT

What happens after 30 Sec ???
I have done this like 50 times already . . . . . . . I think mine are broke.

 

[Original Tetonice]

If you need help call 1-800-TRA-DJBJ for assistance.

OT

 

[Ace Powder]

Have you pull apart your dpm and cleaned it with some wd-40? Out of 32 brand new 09 800xp's rentals about 10 of them would not hold rpms under a load. It was as simple as cleaning a corroded dpm. DPM not working= too much gas being pushed into the carbs=loaded up. If you were at sea level it wouldn't matter, but your not.

 

[JohnnyH]

No but I will tonight. I am new to Doo so forgive the following questions.
Is the DPM the solenoid with the vacuum lines next to the carbes?
Anything I should know before taking it apart?

 

[NoSecondChances]

Joe......If everything is fine with the engine and clutch wear parts.....Your rpm should peak at 8100 to 8200 on the road or on the hill and you should not have to open your hood to change clickers or swap out govener cups or ramps.......If your at 8100 on the road and 7400 to 7700 on the hill your clutching is messed up somewhere.

Curious to know if anyone out there riding is swapping govner cups and or ramps while riding.

I got to hand it to you Joe that some pretty funnt stuff. ... By the way rather than suggesting race gas to cool the motor you might try a product call "water wetter" which is a product used by "top fuel drag racer" to keep internal engine temps cool.

Using your clickers to tune your sled is a bad idea.

OT

???? - DJ's comments on the higher temp are not in direct relation to coolant, he is talking about driving just under the knock sensor and having deto, which is why you would get higher temps since the knock sensor is not engaging yet. Detonation would more likely happen on the trail since typically the trail is at lower elevation than normal alpine and riding areas, especially with a head cut for higher elevation or a higher comp ratio (like the first guy has).

So yes, you would have to run better fuel to cool things down (or like he says - go up in elevation), and by motor he meant combustion temps. DJ's logic here makes perfect sense. Using water wetter will only reduce the operating temp for a little while if you were driving just below the knock sensor, but you will still have the deto with the water wetter.

Secondly - This makes no sense either vvvvvvvv

If your at 8100 on the road and 7400 to 7700 on the hill your clutching is messed up somewhere.

Using your clickers to tune your sled is a bad idea.

OT

If you went up 4000 ft in elevation from the road to the hill, you would have to change clickers or adjust clutching so that your motor is hitting max RPM - your motor is making less power so it won't pull the same weight, hence why you need to clicker up. That's the point of clickers - to be able to tune your sled to run at max power RPM. Your motor cannot (due to several laws of physics and engineering limitations) pull the same weight at alt as it can at sea level and therefore, will not rev as high. This is undisputable (in the case of CVT's in sleds). Seriously, there is no disputing this point.

The same analogy would be like saying you don't need to change main jets to correct the air/fuel ratio and make your sled run better at altitude from sea level.

Usually I try to stay out of these stupid arguments but on this one, I just couldn't let this go since your logic demonstrates significant flaws. The principles that DJ applied in his post are basic clutching and tuning issues and based on your response to them, you needed clarification on these basic principles (or maybe you mis-read his post).

Let's just agree to disagree and leave it at that though shall we?

NSC

 

[Original Tetonice]

???? - DJ's comments on the higher temp are not in direct relation to coolant, he is talking about driving just under the knock sensor and having deto, which is why you would get higher temps since the knock sensor is not engaging yet. Detonation would more likely happen on the trail since typically the trail is at lower elevation than normal alpine and riding areas, especially with a head cut for higher elevation or a higher comp ratio (like the first guy has).

So yes, you would have to run better fuel to cool things down (or like he says - go up in elevation), and by motor he meant combustion temps. DJ's logic here makes perfect sense. Using water wetter will only reduce the operating temp for a little while if you were driving just below the knock sensor, but you will still have the deto with the water wetter.

Secondly - This makes no sense either vvvvvvvv



If you went up 4000 ft in elevation from the road to the hill, you would have to change clickers or adjust clutching so that your motor is hitting max RPM - your motor is making less power so it won't pull the same weight, hence why you need to clicker up. That's the point of clickers - to be able to tune your sled to run at max power RPM. Your motor cannot (due to several laws of physics and engineering limitations) pull the same weight at alt as it can at sea level and therefore, will not rev as high. This is undisputable (in the case of CVT's in sleds). Seriously, there is no disputing this point.

The same analogy would be like saying you don't need to change main jets to correct the air/fuel ratio and make your sled run better at altitude from sea level.

Usually I try to stay out of these stupid arguments but on this one, I just couldn't let this go since your logic demonstrates significant flaws. The principles that DJ applied in his post are basic clutching and tuning issues and based on your response to them, you needed clarification on these basic principles (or maybe you mis-read his post).

Let's just agree to disagree and leave it at that though shall we?

NSC

When you ride a Polaris, Cat or Yammie from the road to 4000 feet you don't have to click nothing. In fact the 3 mentioned sleds don't even have clickers. The Doo clutch operates on the same CVT theory as the Poo, Cat and Yammie. GO FIGURE !!!!......I and many others ride from 6000 to 10,000 feet all the time and don't need to adjust our clickers

Whats funny around SW is the folks who struggle with there TRA's are the folks who tend to disagree.

As for the knock sensor.......Weather the sled has a knock sensor or not ALL 2 strokes detonate at approx 1350 degrees. Run a set of EGT's sometimes and you will notice as the throttle is increased the 2 stroke motors temps will also increase. It's not rocket science folks and not as complicated as some make it out to be.

OT

 

[Original Tetonice]

NoSecondChance, you might go to "Redline Racing Products" website and clicky "water wetter" so you can get an education on the effe cts of water wetter.

Combustion Temps, Operating Temps now theres some funny stuff NoSecondChance.... Maybe we need to add a new fluid bottle under the hoody ? Heck before you know it someone on SW will discover some new revelation that will require one to be added.

OT

 

[NoSecondChances]

When you ride a Polaris, Cat or Yammie from the road to 4000 feet you don't have to click nothing. In fact the 3 mentioned sleds don't even have clickers. The Doo clutch operates on the same CVT theory as the Poo, Cat and Yammie. GO FIGURE !!!!......I and many others ride from 6000 to 10,000 feet all the time and don't need to adjust our clickers

Whats funny around SW is the folks who struggle with there TRA's are the folks who tend to disagree.

As for the knock sensor.......Weather the sled has a knock sensor or not ALL 2 strokes detonate at approx 1350 degrees. Run a set of EGT's sometimes and you will notice as the throttle is increased the 2 stroke motors temps will also increase. It's not rocket science folks and not as complicated as some make it out to be.

OT

Actually, I run a Cat as well as my Doo and my other back up sled and I have the clutching dailed on all of them...so go figure huh? I managed to figure out the TRA. I run EGT's on both my main sleds and have on all my sleds over the years. I have also run jackshaft rpm, CHT's and a host of other parameters to evaluate things that are going on.

Yes the Doo operates on the same theory, but there are significant differences between the TRA and other clutches offered, mainly like the way it is designed and how it operates.

Just because all 2 stroke sleds detonate at 1350 means nothing. No stock sled should be detonating unless a serious sub-grade of fuel is used. LOL Detonation is based on compression and octane, not who's sticker is on the hood. If you detonate you will make heat. Too much heat and things don't run like they should (too much pipe heat, motor heat, hot air inducted into the engine..etc). In order to not detonate, you have to change fuel, not add water wetter.
Good times..... good times.....

 

[Original Tetonice]

Actually, I run a Cat as well as my Doo and my other back up sled and I have the clutching dailed on all of them...so go figure huh? I managed to figure out the TRA. I run EGT's on both my main sleds and have on all my sleds over the years. I have also run jackshaft rpm, CHT's and a host of other parameters to evaluate things that are going on.

Yes the Doo operates on the same theory, but there are significant differences between the TRA and other clutches offered, mainly like the way it is designed and how it operates.

Just because all 2 stroke sleds detonate at 1350 means nothing. No stock sled should be detonating unless a serious sub-grade of fuel is used. LOL Detonation is based on compression and octane, not who's sticker is on the hood. If you detonate you will make heat. Too much heat and things don't run like they should (too much pipe heat, motor heat, hot air inducted into the engine..etc). In order to not detonate, you have to change fuel, not add water wetter.
Good times..... good times.....

Just curious to know if you use coolant in your snowmobile ?.....Im pretty certain 1350 degrees would be pretty signifacant in your 2 stroke if you operated without coolant. Waterwetter is an excellent additive to further cool engine combustion by as much as 30% over reguar ethelyen gycols.... Without either you fry your motor regardless of octane.

OT

 

[winter brew]

Water Wetter.....ya, I ran that several years ago. Good product, but not really pertinant to clutching setup.
OT I thought you ran the deep POW???? If you do, then engine temps shouldn't be an issue.

 

[NoSecondChances]

Just curious to know if you use coolant in your snowmobile ?.....Im pretty certain 1350 degrees would be pretty signifacant in your 2 stroke if you operated without coolant. Waterwetter is an excellent additive to further cool engine combustion by as much as 30% over reguar ethelyen gycols.... Without either you fry your motor regardless of octane.

OT

Still not comprehending how adding water wetter to my coolant cures the issue of detonation caused by not running enough octane in my fuel (unless you think that the gas tank and the cooling system in your sled are connected with a hose somehow). Adding water wetter may drop the operating temp but is not a cure for the deto problem, it is at best, a very, very poor bandaid. It will do nothing to cure the deto other than lower the operating temp a few degrees, you're still going to rattle the plugs out or rattle the ring keepers out, you'll just do it at a slightly lower water temp. The heat transfer capability of aluminum will only be able to move a certain amount of heat from the piston and rings into the cylinder wall, you've still likely got combustion temps in the danger range.

If deto was simply cured by adding water wetter, then why wouldn't we all fill our tanks with water wetter and run 16:1 on pump gas?

Who cares about not running without coolant, yeah 1350 would be significant, heck, 400F at idle would be significant without coolant, but no one said they are running without coolant, so I don't know how you are making that connection either. It makes a great argument to support your theory about detonation at 1350, but does nothing to solve the issue here cuz as far as I read, everyone had a tank full of coolant.

As an FYI, I ran water wetter in my race cars and other race engines I have built for years and know lots of guys that still do. For all you know, I might be a goshdarn wealth of knowledge on the stuff since I may have used it on the oval track for years so don't believe all the hype you read on the Redline website. I challenge you to run a test and see for yourself if it drops the temps 30% , because it only dropped the temps in my race car from 210 to 190 (20 degrees) which equated to about 10%.

If you don't understand combustion temps and operating temps that's OK, PM me, I'll give you some more info.

 

[winter brew]

I'm thinking you might be a goshdarn wealth of knowledge on the stuff.
I'm going with water wetter, splitfire plugs and every groundbreaking and revolutionary product heelclicker has made for the past 5 years and I'll be the KING.

 

[Original Tetonice]

Water Wetter.....ya, I ran that several years ago. Good product, but not really pertinant to clutching setup.
OT I thought you ran the deep POW???? If you do, then engine temps shouldn't be an issue.

I agree combustion, octane, comp heads, canisters and exhaust have little to do with clutching..... I doo ride deep POW, and theres no sense in owning a BigBore if your not going to tune it to run Lean & Mean. As you know when you run L&M you can go Kaboom at any elevation if your not careful. Owning a BD Box or similar onboard tool helps in that department as well.

If your sleds running fat your sleds running slow.

OT