RB3 Mapping

[seano700]

Has anyone experimented building there own maps on the RB3. I recently upgraded to the larger injectors and haven't been able to find a map suitable for low boost (10-14psi). So being adventureous I loaded up a bunch of fuel, laptop and went out to the lake for a day of tuning. I learned alot, way more then I expected and finished the day with a map almost dialed in. I'm trying something quite different then most other maps I've seen.

The first thing I did was verify the voltage out from the map sensor using a hand pump to confirm the min and max voltages. Then I used the pump to simulate boost and noted the voltage/TPS percentage from Vacuum to 16psi. I then created my own 8 Load steps based on the boost levels I want to run (10-16psi). My last column on the injection tab is now 60% from 95%. This gave me tunability in 2 psi increments (likely excessive). Talk about control now, its very easy to make precise changes in fuel dilivery. Still a little rich but it's comming along very quick, now that the R&D is out of the way. Anyone else try something similar?? How did it work for you?

Thanks in advance!!

 

[Transporter]

What is this on?

 

[Polarisrocks]

I think you ought to know that the rb3 reads percent difernt than you think, if you are at 12lbs and 40% column and want to run 13lbs -18lbs than you are in the 60% column. Its an up to percentage, as you pass the 40% point you start into the next column. Try doing a trace on it some time, you will see your cursor in the 10% column on a a small throttle jab and your boost gauge hasnt even moved out of vacumn, the 3 bar is very sensitive. I am trying out a map today thats for low boost12-14 and stage three injectors, if its successful I will pm you and get your email. What is you details on your motor? compression? cam timing? race fuel?

 

[TurboKeith]

I'm considering the injector upgrade myself. I'd be interested to see how your map looks too.

 

[seano700]

I think you ought to know that the rb3 reads percent difernt than you think, if you are at 12lbs and 40% column and want to run 13lbs -18lbs than you are in the 60% column. Its an up to percentage, as you pass the 40% point you start into the next column. Try doing a trace on it some time, you will see your cursor in the 10% column on a a small throttle jab and your boost gauge hasnt even moved out of vacumn, the 3 bar is very sensitive. I am trying out a map today thats for low boost12-14 and stage three injectors, if its successful I will pm you and get your email. What is you details on your motor? compression? cam timing? race fuel?

Sled is a Nytro, stock motor, with head shim. I'm using a 50/50 mix of premium and Av gas upto 15psi. Cam timing is done as per powder lites jig. Using Daves green injectors (450cc I think??)

When I did my initial testing I used the trace function to corrolate Boost (from my handpump) to percentage of TPS. That way I knew exactly where my load step should be (took min/max voltages variables out). I tested the very same senario you talked about above. Dave is under the same understanding as yourself with the "up to logic" in respect to the load columns. I did noticed at idle with little blips it would dance between columns. I asumed this had to do with the min voltage where the RB3 was taking over and giving back control to the stock computer (on and off vacuum). When I applied pressure with my pump the trace would always switch at the desired pressure.

Example: 36% (10psi) is one load column and the next is 42% (12psi). When using my pump the trace would switch to the 36% coulmn once 10psi was reached, it would stay in that column until 12psi was reached then switch up. I tested this quite a few times to make sure.. Is there some configuration preferences I may have different?? OR am I just out to lunch (very possible as this is pretty new to me) I will double check again.

Finally I have my min voltage set at 1.45 volts, however when the sled is at idle the map sensor is putting out 1.25 volts. I my mind, I should lower the min voltage so the RB3 is always in control. What do you think?? Perhaps this will help with backfiring when comming down the mountain??

Thanks again in advance! Sean

 

[Lococoin]

Finally I have my min voltage set at 1.45 volts, however when the sled is at idle the map sensor is putting out 1.25 volts. I my mind, I should lower the min voltage so the RB3 is always in control. What do you think?? Perhaps this will help with backfiring when comming down the mountain??

Thanks again in advance! Sean

If you are running bigger injectors i think it is important to have the rb3 setup to tune the vacuum portion of the map. I still feel that this needs to be done even if you are running the stock injectors since you are running a higher fuel pressure than stock therefore making the stock map even richer than it was before.

When you talk about fuel between columns ie 40% to 60%. The RB3 is interpolating the numbers between those columns in a linear fashion. It shows the trace on the next column higher but is definitely interpolating in between them when reading the map sensor voltage.

Usually in boost you don't need your columns to be too close together, you would be better off setting it up so that you had more vacuum columns and then a few less boost columns. Part throttle tuning is always much more difficult than full throttle tuning so the extra adjust ability would be helpful.

I have attached a screen shot from the Hondata Fuel management software from my car that i used to run 22 lbs of boost on. As you can see, there are a lot of columns for part throttle tuning with much less for boost. The RB3 would be a wicked program if it could do a few things:

-Have extra columns to help with fine tuning
-show inches of mercury and psi instead of %'s.
-have a selection that allows you to pick what map sensor you have and automatically add the scalars and offset instead of having to measure you vmin vmax like we do now.
-etc

These are just a couple of things that would sure help make things a lot easier to work on.

On a side note, I had heard that that rapid bike is working on an upgraded software to address some of the above concerns and more. It is supposed to be something that is designed to work with boosted applications more so than what is out there now. I have no idea if this rumor is true and if it is, when the software will come out.

If someone knows of someone in Italy from Rapid bike that can speak fluent english I would be happy to talk with them about options for an improved software that would make the product even better than it already is.

 

[WingNutRacing]

loco

Have you adjusted the Jan 17 map dave put out for higher elevation to get rid of that damn hiccup??? I have been tempted to buy the software and mess with it, but don't know enough about it just yet,,, still learning, but I like it!

 

[Polarisrocks]

"" It shows the trace on the next column higher but is definitely interpolating in between them when reading the map sensor voltage""

Much better terminaligy, What I found is that I had to adjust a perimiter around the box i needed to increase, not just on single box. I went out yesterday and with stage three injectors and ran two different maps, jason williams was the closest, bob dixons wouldnt even pull the sled out of its own way. So I am back to the drawing board. One question I had was, with bigger injector is the decrease in fuel percentage on the map is it going to be linear to a stock injector map or is the gain or loss as it rises in rpms? I did notice alot of poping and farting at decompression, and air fuels as high as 20 coming down from a climb, but the sled idles perfect, air fuel is 13.7 and pures. So how would you fix the high vaccum lean condition? Can the 1st collumn be reasigned in a (negative/ high vacumn) fashion for vacumn to add more fuel for those conditions? Would increasing the defelction help with this decompression?

Jim

 

[Lococoin]

"" It shows the trace on the next column higher but is definitely interpolating in between them when reading the map sensor voltage""

Much better terminaligy, What I found is that I had to adjust a perimiter around the box i needed to increase, not just on single box. I went out yesterday and with stage three injectors and ran two different maps, jason williams was the closest, bob dixons wouldnt even pull the sled out of its own way. So I am back to the drawing board. One question I had was, with bigger injector is the decrease in fuel percentage on the map is it going to be linear to a stock injector map or is the gain or loss as it rises in rpms? I did notice alot of poping and farting at decompression, and air fuels as high as 20 coming down from a climb, but the sled idles perfect, air fuel is 13.7 and pures. So how would you fix the high vaccum lean condition? Can the 1st collumn be reasigned in a (negative/ high vacumn) fashion for vacumn to add more fuel for those conditions? Would increasing the defelction help with this decompression?

Jim

Ya you would definitely have to adjust the boxes around it for the interpolation in between to work properly. I would assume it is interpolating the RPM as well although it is less of an issue since it has so many columns for RPM. For example: If an ignition table contains 20 degrees advance at 2000 rpm and 10 degrees advance at 3000 rpm, when the engine rpm is 2500 rpm the ignition advance will be 15 degrees. The same applies for the fuel numbers.

I would expect to see high air fuel numbers on deceleration due to the pumping effect of the engine without much fuel being added. If the popping is indeed a lean condition, i would adjust the low voltage setting on the RB3 to a value that includes the maximum vacuum you are seeing on deceleration (say -12 "Hg), and then add fuel to those areas and see what happens.

You have more time playing with the software than I do. I do have the blue bike but haven't played around with tuning too much. If i wasn't planning on upgrading my injectors and map sensor for next year i would spend some time on this map, but since it is near the end of the season i just plan on riding for now and getting it fined tuned next year.

 

[Polarisrocks]

I went to powderlites and did some tune time on the tuning bike it my stock injectors and what a difference that made. What I am concerned about is if I adjust lower rpms for decompression, then I would be very rich at idle. Also since I have larger injector I need to have my min voltage very low so I can pull fuel at idle. Now if raised the min voltage then I will be rich on accelleration. I am going to call dave on monday and pick his brain. I am definetly getting enough fuel on top now

I will post some stuff after talking to dave.


Jim

 

[seano700]

Interesting

Thanks for all the input guy's!! Really good reading and learning. I had no idea the RB3 interpolated between columns. Through all this discussion I assume that the 0% column should be set to = max vacuum?? That way one could tune out the backfiring? Then as Loco suggested add a low % column for idle tuning, and carry on. Makes sense to me anyway. Am I on the right track?? Thanks Again.

 

[Sapling-Thrasher]

I ran my Apex with the RB3 and bigger injectors this weekend and the map still needs a lot of work. It runs ok but is not great. It is really strange how it is pulling huge amounts of fuel at certain low RPM's creating big dips in my fuel curve but not pulling fuel only 500 RPMS away.

I wish I could have a whole day with the tuning bike. Unfortunately I will have to resort back to the old way of generator and laptop on the hill to finish the map off as my trips to Revy this year are over. Hoping to do this in the evenings over the next couple weeks.

Polarisrocks, My map worked better on yours than Bob's? Same here. Bob's wouldn't even get my sled moving!! I am thinking of overlaying Bob's timing map on my injection map and then tuning from there. If I get it spot on I will send it to you.

Sap
JW

 

[Transporter]

Hey sapling what size turbo and boost are you running?Where you running out of fuel and needed the bigger injectors?

 

[Sapling-Thrasher]

Hey sapling what size turbo and boost are you running?Where you running out of fuel and needed the bigger injectors?

I have a 2860. I ran the tuning bike for a whole day with the stock injectors and it ran awesome.....except I could not get past 14 pounds of boost. I was at about 13.1 AFR at 14 lbs with the stock injectors. This was with the RB3 boxes maxed at 100 on the top end. I changed out to Dave's stage 3 injectors and now I am getting tons of fuel on the top end. At 17 pounds over the weekend I am only in the mid 60's on the fuel boxes on the top end. I got about an hour on the tuning bike module with the bigger injectors so at least I didn't have to start from scratch. I would love to go back and visit Dave but I spent 18 days in Revy this year and I don't think my wife would be happy if I went back up!!

I have also made my own maps using lower percentages on the top end.
After doing so though I believe that Lococoin is right it is better to have more control of the bottom end than the top end. You spend so little time in each box on the top end.

If the tuning bike module wasn't so expensive I would own one!!!

 

[Transporter]

Seems weird you could only get 14 psi before you started getting lean a/f.Did you adjust fuel pressure or anything like that.Not sure what map I got but seems ok right now other than during warm up it barely runs unless I hold throttle a bit until the regular idle takes over at temp.Seems like secondary injectors is the answer for high boost,Tunability.Here is some info for injector sizing not sure if it relevant or not.http://www.rceng.com/technical.aspx

 

[Sapling-Thrasher]

Seems weird you could only get 14 psi before you started getting lean a/f.Did you adjust fuel pressure or anything like that.Not sure what map I got but seems ok right now other than during warm up it barely runs unless I hold throttle a bit until the regular idle takes over at temp.Seems like secondary injectors is the answer for high boost,Tunability.Here is some info for injector sizing not sure if it relevant or not.http://www.rceng.com/technical.aspx

I messed around with fuel pressure regulators with no luck getting consistency. For some reason bigger injectors are needed with the RB3 to get bigger boost.

 

[sledhead162]

i found a load % to boost conv. chart on totallyamaha has any body used that you enter your min and max volts and it gives u boost numbers per %

 

[Polarisrocks]

I started at 1st with no boost controler, just a line, and with no head shim and the stage 2 header and intercooler down pipe I was running out of fuel at 11 lbs. I am running 96 gram weights at 11-12 lbs and it is on fire. They say that no head shim is worth 3-4 lbs of boost, So If thats the case I am in the same areas as the 14 lbs and running out of fuel. SO am on to bigger injectors and starting over with the tuning. At 1st I was curious why the load percentages were inconsistant with the common boost levels, but the truth is you are never in one box or one column very long unless you are at full boost. If you did a trace on your sled and could see just how fast that cursor is moving you would see the complexity in tuning this box, its never one box at a time. It may be nice to have a column for your final boost level, but since you are interpolating between the two columns, it makes for easier tuning that way. What is hard to imagine is the lows and the highs in a map, one would think that it is a smooth ramp up and it just isnt. Every sled is different, from fuels to headers to clutching and loading the motor to turbos. So thank god for the tuning bike and having a guy like dave that knows his stuff!!!!!

 

[Transporter]

Just wondering but wouldnt all powderlites and alpine turbo kits be running out of fuel at 14 psi if yours is?Thats not the case though.

 

[Duke]

Mine doesnt run out of fuel, even at 20 #'s. I run 50/50 Prem/C12 at 18#'s.
Your welcome to try it for yourself