Tuning with SLP Single/Hps can combo?

[pumpnlead]

I have heard that this combination is good, but does a guy need to adjust anything with the efi to get the sled to run properly. The reason I ask is that SLP sent me this email when I told them what I was planning on running:


Hello,


The pipe and silencer are tuned as a unit and that does help us achieve better power bands and increased hp. Changing the silencer will change the flow and pulse which can result in reducing dependability, drivability and hp loss. On the EFI systems it will also change the fuel requirement so the map may not be within parameter with the altered silencer. Even silencer to pipe mounting variances can stress the pipe or Y pipe and cause breakage or chassis fit issues. We do not recommend altering the silencer in any way. Doing so will also void any warranty that would be available from SLP.

If you were to install the SLP pipe you would be responsible to tune the sled yourself since our provided specifications would not apply to your combination.

Thanks, Jim


Starting Line Products

743 Iona Rd

Idaho Falls, Idaho 83401

208-529-0244

http://www.slp.cc

 

[RMKRAZIE]

i have a 08 D7 and i have a slp pipe with an 800 mbrp can...sled runs strong and pulls hard...no problems yet

 

[Kraven]

I have heard that this combination is good, but does a guy need to adjust anything with the efi to get the sled to run properly. The reason I ask is that SLP sent me this email when I told them what I was planning on running:


Hello,


The pipe and silencer are tuned as a unit and that does help us achieve better power bands and increased hp. Changing the silencer will change the flow and pulse which can result in reducing dependability, drivability and hp loss. On the EFI systems it will also change the fuel requirement so the map may not be within parameter with the altered silencer. Even silencer to pipe mounting variances can stress the pipe or Y pipe and cause breakage or chassis fit issues. We do not recommend altering the silencer in any way. Doing so will also void any warranty that would be available from SLP.

If you were to install the SLP pipe you would be responsible to tune the sled yourself since our provided specifications would not apply to your combination.

Thanks, Jim


Starting Line Products

743 Iona Rd

Idaho Falls, Idaho 83401

208-529-0244

http://www.slp.cc

A few months ago, Jim @ Dynotech tested abunch of different parts on a D-8 (I know you were asking about he D-7) point being the DYNOPORT can flowed more (Which required more fuel via the PC III) and made the most H.P. WITH ONE PARTICULAR COMBINATION TESTED. That being said what SLP's letter says is true, different (flowing) cans CAN and DOES affect the fuel curve.

Back on Jan 1, 2009 Jim dynoed a 2008 D-7, (xc8 on hardcoresledder.com) tested a SLP pipe on it and I think the SLP can, but I can't remember if he tested any others, you may want to subscribe to DYNOTECH, or e-mail Jim , info@dynotechresearch.com Jim has several maps pre-programmed and available for the D-7's STOCK and with MODS. His # (585) 993-2777. Jim's a real straight up guy to talk to and do business with.

I have a PC III on my 2007 D-7, Best bang for the buck mod I did on this sled, Stock pipe and can, 5-10% Lean ON TOP END, 5-7% richer in the mid-range. I paid $ 365.00 for my PC III shipped with all the maps included.

Hope this helps.

 

[pumpnlead]

Is anyone out there running this combination? Did you have to re-map or are you having any issues running it as-is?

 

[skyman]

I ran the slp pipe and hps can combo on my d8 all last winter with no problems. But it's a good plan to get some kind of controller they do have a lean spot right around 6,000 to 7,000 RPM.

IMO it seemed to run better with the hps can verses the slp.

 

[mountainhorse]

Here's my $0.02

Other than making more noise... why change out something that was designed as a system (pipe/can combo)?

Most cans actually loose power... higher flowing cans, on a two stroke engine change the scavenging characteristics of a given pipe compared to what they were designed to do. Higher flow on a 4 stroke is more of a direct correlation... to a point.

People hear more noise coming out of thier sled and they have this percieved feeling of more power ... I can't count the number of people that I've heard say "Man... I changed out the can to X-brand and boy did it really wake up the sled...feels like 5-10HP more...Seat-of-the-pants...not some stinkin dyno... nice and loud, sweet sound... Fu** them greenies "...

The ONLY reason for me to add an aftermarket can is drop some weight in the sled.

IMO... Stick with the SLP can on the SLP pipe...Unless you need to have a loud sled to keep you happy... then settle for spending $350 more for a controller to put you back at the same spot as the SLP can will put you. OUCH... thats nearing $1000 for exhaust mods on a sled.

The only performance gain I've ever seen from a can alone, on ANY pipe, is from the lightening effect it has on your wallet!!

 

[mountainhorse]

There is NOTHING to "adjust" on the CFi.

Unless you get a $300 - $400 controller that allows you change fuel curves.

NOT to be confused with a true, resident, Map of fuel/ignition based on variable inputs in the factory ECU. The ECU still provides the Master-map... the controllers "Piggyback" new signals to the Fuel injectors alone and don't alter the ignition curves. There are no "chips" to add either.

I do not know of ANY controllers, Boondockers, Dobeck (includes Attitude, Fastrax, Pure Logic etc) or PCIII that vary the input side of the factory ECU signals... other than (maybe) changing the location of the temperature sensor for the airbox.

Dont get me wrong, in this age of paying for an expensive sled to have it into the shop from burndowns 2-3 even 4 times in its first season would have me looking to an aftermarket controller to try to do what the factory couldnt do for me. (keep the sled running).

If you are porting, piping etc... the controllers are the ONLY way to compensate for the mods and increased/decreased fuel demands you may run into. EXCEPT for SLP and Carls which actually re-burn in their custom map into the factory ECU without the use of controllers. They only offer this for their own design in performance packages.

I'd count on AFR/EGT's (or both) as a mandatory addition to the sled IF you are running an aftermarket controller. You need to know how the sled is running other than seat of the pants.

Plan on 2 -3 full days getting used to the controller and getting it dialed in for your situation.

Controller, AFR, Pipe, Can .... $300 + $250 + $500 + $200 => $1250

Good luck.

 

[RMKRAZIE]

Stick with the SLP can on the SLP pipe...Unless you need to have a loud sled to keep you happy...

have to agree...but im "young and dumb" so i like my sled loud...never said it made more power but there is a defenate difference in noise.

 

[pumpnlead]

I think I got more than $.02 there, but I guess I can appreciate the honesty. Maybe I'll spend my money elsewhere.

 

[AndrettiDog]

Kraven,

Doesn't Dynotech test at a much lower elevation? I'm not bashing, but I can't help but think that even 1,000 feet would make his results skewed compared to our 8,000-10,000 riding.

 

[F-Bomb]

Mostly and editorial because it's summer............

The irony of this entire thread is that you pretty much need to have the ability to "adjust the efi" on all of the 08-09 800 put out so far irregardless of factory stock or improved!

It is becoming increasingly apparent with extensive research and observation of the experiences of those before us that a fuel controller in the hands of a knowledgable applicator appears to be the answer of the day. Next year? Anybody's guess! EFI was supposed to be magically delicious in that you can hop on at any air condition, temp, or alt and have safe reliable consistant high performance. Opps apparantly that isn't exactly how things ended up working. I speculate for the masses in our application and parameters it's an impossibility.

For hardcore high performance buffs who are willing to modify their equipment I see an absolute value and rebirth of the (what I thought would be extinct because of EFI) tried, trusted, and true EGT system. Bad part is that requires experience and effort and user imput so it's still not "automatic" or what people are referring to as "closed loop". It has to be managed and constantly imput manipulated for radical environmental variables. That gets most out of the game.

Discussion or comments?

 

[mountainhorse]

New thread?

this one started as a Pipe/can combo for a Dragon 700.

 

[Kraven]

Kraven,

Doesn't Dynotech test at a much lower elevation? I'm not bashing, but I can't help but think that even 1,000 feet would make his results skewed compared to our 8,000-10,000 riding.

Agreed on the lower elevation.

However are you referring to the actual H.P #'s, or the differential (what's to be gained by adding the mod) or whether his mapping on the PC III will work @ altitude ??

 

[AndrettiDog]

I understand the HP difference at altitude. I'm questioning if the mapping will work for us at elevation.

 

[440dart]

i put on a slp pipe didnt notice a difference at all spend the money on a camo exstreme or towards a turbo or suspension yeah sure i might of gained a hp but not worth the money to me i also ran it with a wideband 02 and a dobeck controler

 

[pumpnlead]

i put on a slp pipe didnt notice a difference at all spend the money on a camo exstreme or towards a turbo or suspension yeah sure i might of gained a hp but not worth the money to me i also ran it with a wideband 02 and a dobeck controler

That's what I'm starting to think. I've been wanting that track for a while, maybe that's where I'll invest next.

 

[Kraven]

I understand the HP difference at altitude. I'm questioning if the mapping will work for us at elevation.

I think you misunderstood me.

Regarding differential, I meant if a pipe or head let's say made only 2-3 h.p. @ lower elevation would it also make only APPROXIMATELY the same at higher elevation, example: that Sean Ray lower compression head mod made 2-5 h.p. @ 1000 feet would it make ANY increase at all at elevation or even a LOSS?????

As far as the mapping working @ elevation since the PC III is "PIGGYBACKED" onto the stock map, you're somewhat relying or assuming that the stock map is the same amount rich or lean in the areas that are being changed. The PC III come with all zero's and Jim just adds or subtracts "percentages"

For me to say yes to that I'd probably be putting my foot in mouth, I would suggest to give Jim a call on his cell, real nice guy to talk to, real straight up, he would definitely NOT sell you something that didn't work. His cell # (585) 993-2777 He's definitely not a super salesman guy.

Hope this helps.

 

[F-Bomb]

It would be interesting to either dyno or data log in the field the actual variations in fuel/spark/burn that happen as the result of just the exhaust muffler/can. Also like to know exactly where the break of alt and conditions of the day move outside the set operational map of our current efi systems. For me it appeared to be about 3,000 feet up or down and 30* normal clear conditions (I didn't volume test air so that is still a question) from known quality states of tune for a given vehicle before it was radically noticable. (weirdly that is not unsimilar to carb'd two strokes)

If you have data-logging A/F I suppose you could see a report of the variations at a given RPM for simple field experimenting. Of course that assumes your A/F readout to lamda is considered ideal for the vehicle (much debate there!) I can see the variations on EGT's on my data logger but you need to have massive experience on each independant vehicle to relate an exact EGT read to the RPM and know what those differences really mean to your state of tune. I have that level of knowledge on my race sleds engines but not on my 09 EFI daily rider (1st experience with sled efi). I should have spent all last year doing this so that instead of simply riding it around wondering if it was the best that it could be. Obviously it was safe because it lived...the question is similar to what pumpnlead is wondering and is universal to all of us. Was it all it could be? Hmmm There is so much cool info and experience being tested and used by alot of guys on the various controllers and efi stuff both natural and turbo. The world has come a long long ways in a very short 2 year duration for polaris guys. Go to dynoport power commander and read up on the V. Also there are several very qualified and experienced people playing with these systems and discussing experiences on Hardcore Sledder. Worth the (mine anyway) time I thought.

 

[mountainhorse]

The biggest problem with the λ (lambda, aka O2) sensors is that they really do not have any reliability for long term installs in 2 stroke environments. At least not the low dollar (sub $200) category [for the sensor itself] that is used in all of the AFR gauges.

The sensors just will not give accurate information over extended periods due to oil fouling of the rhodium element and I would only leave them in the exhaust stream (of a 2 stroke) for calibration and tuning purposes. Otherwise... they just will not offer reliable information over the duration of the season. This is by the admission of Jim at Dynotech, the good people at NGK, Bosch, AEM and Innovate.

EGT's in the right hands will still provide more reliable monitoring over the day to day use of the sled and this is why Boondockers recommends them over the AFR gauges on sled.

Do I think that AFR gauges are good, YES... Should they be used for day-to-day monitoring and adjustment of a 2 stroke system... IMO..NO.

Any "closed" loop piggyback system that uses a λ sensor in the exhaust will leave a lot to be desired as far as consistency.. at least with the current offerings in λ sensors for this market. They really are not a true closed loop system as there is no Mass airflow sensor so the front end (the factory ECU) in the system is still a simple speed-density system.

I belive that Evinrude/BRP in thier E-tec system has a 2 stroke compatibe λ sensor in thier outboard motors.. but that part is like $500 and is NOT installed in their E-tec sled offerings.

IMO... If you have an AFR gauge in your 2 stroke sled and are relying on it for tuning... chagne out the λ sensor every 500 miles or so....IMO

 

[440dart]

you are correct it did fail on me but buy that time i already had the sled where i wanted it, all i was sugesting was that he spend his money else where from my exsperiences, just to me that pipe did not make a difference other than noise, thats why i try to lead people away from them i know most people dont have alot of money so there looking for the best bang for there buck i try to lead them into suspension or track changes in my opion the switch to a camo exstreme was leaps and bounds over the stock track