I am trying to get these pipes to work but so far am failing. tried more than a few different programs with the box they provide and all i can pull for rpm is 7700 HELP PLEASE was pulling 8150 with the same clutching and stock pipe
dragon 800 w cpi twins only gettn 7700rpm HELP!!!
- Thread starter badaltitude
- Start date
this sucks just mase a trip 2 the mountains and stil baffled messed with the controll box all weekend because cpi assures me that its a fuel problem but the best i got is 7900 with weights 2 grams lighter thain i was running w the stock pipe to me it seems like it is restricting sumwhere??? i went through the power valves...twice could i not have enuf exhaust pressure now to open the valves??? any input would help
B
Pipes
What elevation? I think it's the pipes. I had a set that they built for a 800 BB ves installed in a Gen II chassis. I had the same problem as you. They had me change the timing and exhaust springs. Still wouldn't make any power. Fit was terrible. Finally they had me bring them the sled. When I got it back, they had added 2 inches to the pipe and they charged me $50.00 to fix the "mod" that they recommended. After I found out the they were not designed to work above 10K feet I sold them to a flat land rider and I think they worked fine. That was back in 04 and they have sold good pipes since but my experience leads me to believe it's the pipe.
What elevation? I think it's the pipes. I had a set that they built for a 800 BB ves installed in a Gen II chassis. I had the same problem as you. They had me change the timing and exhaust springs. Still wouldn't make any power. Fit was terrible. Finally they had me bring them the sled. When I got it back, they had added 2 inches to the pipe and they charged me $50.00 to fix the "mod" that they recommended. After I found out the they were not designed to work above 10K feet I sold them to a flat land rider and I think they worked fine. That was back in 04 and they have sold good pipes since but my experience leads me to believe it's the pipe.
6-8000 i had a set of their twins on an 04 700 rmk ran at same elevation and also ran at home at 2-3000 and loved them would flat spank single pipe 8s but these things are givin me trouble. lighter springs came today so we'll see i guess dont wana send em beck but might hafta. they did fit ok too...kinda suprising
I don't have CPI but maybe we can work through my experiences with other pipes and figure out if it's the pipes are some other thing going on.
First...a few questions
what head cut and who?
what fuel requirement?
who's ECU program what updates eth or pipe sensor in tact and working?
EGT's? If not when you were messing with fuel control and got the 7900 RPM did you pull a plug and get a read? It could be as simple as just running fat and that would be an easy diagnosis if you can run it full out and kill the spark and read it. If you tinkered with fuel control and found more RPM like it sounds then we might be on to it.
Plugs for sure gapped 24 thous
For sure nothing binding in your transmission? Sled lifted spray wax the track and it should walk slowly at idle (simple test) to tell us if there is any undo binding in any bearings or track tension.
Double check your belt and also make sure both clutches are in good working order..flat roller (rare) sticky bushings on a weight..broken primary ect ect can show this result.
What is your clutch setup...we want 8400-8500 on most twins
Does the sled run at idle good, engage as it should 3800-4800, run crisp and pull hard but then just not go above 7900? Can you run along at 5000 then hammer it and it will pull hard or is it just lazy. Is there any settling from the highest RPM. Can you really notice a difference in results from pack snow to off trail loaded snow?
Anyway starting with this bunch and let's see if we can figure it out.
First...a few questions
what head cut and who?
what fuel requirement?
who's ECU program what updates eth or pipe sensor in tact and working?
EGT's? If not when you were messing with fuel control and got the 7900 RPM did you pull a plug and get a read? It could be as simple as just running fat and that would be an easy diagnosis if you can run it full out and kill the spark and read it. If you tinkered with fuel control and found more RPM like it sounds then we might be on to it.
Plugs for sure gapped 24 thous
For sure nothing binding in your transmission? Sled lifted spray wax the track and it should walk slowly at idle (simple test) to tell us if there is any undo binding in any bearings or track tension.
Double check your belt and also make sure both clutches are in good working order..flat roller (rare) sticky bushings on a weight..broken primary ect ect can show this result.
What is your clutch setup...we want 8400-8500 on most twins
Does the sled run at idle good, engage as it should 3800-4800, run crisp and pull hard but then just not go above 7900? Can you run along at 5000 then hammer it and it will pull hard or is it just lazy. Is there any settling from the highest RPM. Can you really notice a difference in results from pack snow to off trail loaded snow?
Anyway starting with this bunch and let's see if we can figure it out.
head is stock runnin 91 octain like they told me to using an attitude box and i have been pullin the plugs like crazy. when i got 7900 out of it they looked perfect...ok maybe a little on the lean side. no egts but have them coming. brand new belt and went through the clutches. runnin 10-62s at about 8000 ft with an slp blue and pink. secondary is stock as of now. idles good thanks to new t.p.s. sensor. track doesnt seem to be in a bind. runnin along at 5000 or so and punchin it seems a little lazy to me. seems to hold top rpm ok tho but its just not high enuff or even near wher the power peak should be with twins and i didnt notice much difference between hard pack and powder. it really just seems like sumthing is plugged or restrictive. got lighter springs for exhaust valves 2day but didnt install them yet.???
also it runs the exact same rpm with 10-62s as it does with 10-66s at the same place same altitude doesnt make sense??? also revs higher and is more responsive at 3/4 to 7/8 throttle than at w.o.t. gona pull the pipes and exhaust valves tomorrow and double check nothing is plugged and no torn billows in the valves. also i have the slp air horn and flow rites installed so i think its gettin enuf air. i worked at a polaris shop for a few years and every time i ran into sumthing like this it was always something little that got overlooked but this time i am having trouble finding that "something"
i think he gave up and sold the slp pipes
i switched the exhaust springs last nite from oarnge(stock w 2010 update) to purple(stock 08 and also 1 step lighter) and now runnin 8200! i think im headn the right direction!!!!! keepn my fingers crossed anyways gona go a couple steps lighter on the springs cuz it hits 8200 then levels out and drops to 8000 and the exhaust has a different tone i think the valves are opening all the way wen i first hammer it then they settle beck down a bit maybe anyways but none the less just the springs alone already made a world of difference
Well once you get your EGT's on there and learn exactly what the reports mean you can eliminate at least your fuel to air from the question. What year head do you have on it? Seriously cant imagine how it isn't detonating wildly with pump 91 unless you are riding at 9,000 or up on a stock 09 head. There are extremely varying performance gains with the correct head both compression and cut style.
What does CPI say their pipes run best at RPM wise? On ours 8450-8500 is magical and there is such a huge difference between that and 8000 that you can hardly believe it! A little concerning that your valve springs would earn so much top end RPM. For me all they did was change at what RPM they opened at. It's my understanding that they should be fully open at that point not partially. Might be identifying a problem in the pipe design right there? Also note for some strange reason these motors systems with (p85 to team roller) don't seem to show an over spin when you have way too light of a primary weight. I wonder if that is why you are getting the same top end R's on 4 grams weight difference and why it is having that stronger pull 3/4 to almost full then feeling done on the very top end. Mine acted like that with the 2010 head and the pipe sensor coding so that it went to 10% fat..then we fixed the sensor and ran back in a good state of tune but the 2010 head performed poorly in comparison with the 09 head. It had that exact same feeling of no gain pegged over almost pegged as well as some settling. When we went back to our original 09 head it goes right to 8500 and stays there as long as you have the stones to hold on. Anyway all of that is theory and speculation until you have your EGT's on and have exact knowledge of your tune at that all out range. 100% I can tell you just that 10% pipe issue costs 400 RPM's minimum. Not surprisingly when I messed with hooking and unhooking Eth wires we saw about 150 to 200 RPM's and a 100* pipe heat. IE half of the pipe sensor enrichening so that makes sense since the eth wires are supposed to enrichen 4-5% when disengaged. I don't know how extensive you got into plug reading but it is very very finite and unless you have alot of experience there isn't much plug reading variation between those reports. I went at it just the opposite in that we identified the ideal heat we wanted by plug reading and EXTENSIVE experience on the system by people way smarter then me, then compared those known reads to our instruments reports. Maybe (hopefully) youre still just a little fat yet on the top end. Mainly since we'd assume a manufacturer would test their product and have some success with it in your given arena so that they can advise you!
Now also note on your clutching there is no way your sled will pull 8400-8500stock Polaris 10-66 at 8000ft with 91 fuel on a stock head. See if you can beg borrow or steal a little more helix angle then stock...try for 64-40-.46 and the stock 800 driven spring. If you are willing to put a higher compression head on then Pol 140-330 primary with 62's and that helix should be right there for you at 7,000 to 9,000. Or maybe a 140-320 TEAM RED if you are going to keep the stock head and you may need just 60's. Depends on your track, weight, and the conditions of the day.
What does CPI say their pipes run best at RPM wise? On ours 8450-8500 is magical and there is such a huge difference between that and 8000 that you can hardly believe it! A little concerning that your valve springs would earn so much top end RPM. For me all they did was change at what RPM they opened at. It's my understanding that they should be fully open at that point not partially. Might be identifying a problem in the pipe design right there? Also note for some strange reason these motors systems with (p85 to team roller) don't seem to show an over spin when you have way too light of a primary weight. I wonder if that is why you are getting the same top end R's on 4 grams weight difference and why it is having that stronger pull 3/4 to almost full then feeling done on the very top end. Mine acted like that with the 2010 head and the pipe sensor coding so that it went to 10% fat..then we fixed the sensor and ran back in a good state of tune but the 2010 head performed poorly in comparison with the 09 head. It had that exact same feeling of no gain pegged over almost pegged as well as some settling. When we went back to our original 09 head it goes right to 8500 and stays there as long as you have the stones to hold on. Anyway all of that is theory and speculation until you have your EGT's on and have exact knowledge of your tune at that all out range. 100% I can tell you just that 10% pipe issue costs 400 RPM's minimum. Not surprisingly when I messed with hooking and unhooking Eth wires we saw about 150 to 200 RPM's and a 100* pipe heat. IE half of the pipe sensor enrichening so that makes sense since the eth wires are supposed to enrichen 4-5% when disengaged. I don't know how extensive you got into plug reading but it is very very finite and unless you have alot of experience there isn't much plug reading variation between those reports. I went at it just the opposite in that we identified the ideal heat we wanted by plug reading and EXTENSIVE experience on the system by people way smarter then me, then compared those known reads to our instruments reports. Maybe (hopefully) youre still just a little fat yet on the top end. Mainly since we'd assume a manufacturer would test their product and have some success with it in your given arena so that they can advise you!
Now also note on your clutching there is no way your sled will pull 8400-8500stock Polaris 10-66 at 8000ft with 91 fuel on a stock head. See if you can beg borrow or steal a little more helix angle then stock...try for 64-40-.46 and the stock 800 driven spring. If you are willing to put a higher compression head on then Pol 140-330 primary with 62's and that helix should be right there for you at 7,000 to 9,000. Or maybe a 140-320 TEAM RED if you are going to keep the stock head and you may need just 60's. Depends on your track, weight, and the conditions of the day.
2010 head and 09 settings in ecu when test running on the stand (i know its nt the right thing to do but oh well) it flys to 7900...holds there flat as could be for 3 to 4 seconds then flys to 8500 to 8600. extremely strange that it holds there like that. when i test ride it it wont break that 7900 to 8000 mark... i stil think it mite not be opening the exhaust valves. slp reccomends yellow springs that are only 2.4lbs. big difference from the 5lb springs in it now.
figured out that i am waaaaay too rich almost everywhere accross the band but i have the fuel controller as lean as it will let me and its still too rich! now what???
All that controller does is stack or act as a stacking device by adding or subtracting fuel from your current program. (as you know..comments for the benefit of other reading this)
Load will make a significant difference as you have seen.
You'll need a different ECU baseline package in order to take away fuel if you are already beyond your controllers capability. Here in lies the problem with buying JUST a set of pipes. The way these buggers work you need a package performance deal because the factors of the head design and compression, the fuel map, the octane requirements for your running condition, plus then the other load variables all contribute to the way these things perform and how consistant they are. Done right they are awesome and destroy the best non-ported single piper you'll ever run across (had to state that so guys that would say just put back on a single@! can keep quiet)...done wrong they are an excercise in frustration as you can attest!
Put the setup together with your state of tune and you get a certain factor of air density (IE so many average altitude feet, air water volume, temp ect) to play within and you have a hot rod. Outside of those parameters and something has to be managed. It's pretty easy once you have an established performance baseline to go up and down with the fuel controller and minor variations in octane to maintain that high performance. Surprisingly you'd think clutching or load would be critical as well but it's alot more forgiving then the fuel aspect. You almost get two complete riding zones of performance on the same clutch setup but if you don't have your fuel state of tune right it magnifies the problems and like you are finding out you can't clutch to correct the fuel management issues.
So what now?
call me 208-724-6677 and I'll coach you privately on what needs to take place from here.
Load will make a significant difference as you have seen.
You'll need a different ECU baseline package in order to take away fuel if you are already beyond your controllers capability. Here in lies the problem with buying JUST a set of pipes. The way these buggers work you need a package performance deal because the factors of the head design and compression, the fuel map, the octane requirements for your running condition, plus then the other load variables all contribute to the way these things perform and how consistant they are. Done right they are awesome and destroy the best non-ported single piper you'll ever run across (had to state that so guys that would say just put back on a single@! can keep quiet)...done wrong they are an excercise in frustration as you can attest!
Put the setup together with your state of tune and you get a certain factor of air density (IE so many average altitude feet, air water volume, temp ect) to play within and you have a hot rod. Outside of those parameters and something has to be managed. It's pretty easy once you have an established performance baseline to go up and down with the fuel controller and minor variations in octane to maintain that high performance. Surprisingly you'd think clutching or load would be critical as well but it's alot more forgiving then the fuel aspect. You almost get two complete riding zones of performance on the same clutch setup but if you don't have your fuel state of tune right it magnifies the problems and like you are finding out you can't clutch to correct the fuel management issues.
So what now?
call me 208-724-6677 and I'll coach you privately on what needs to take place from here.
thanks F-bomb i will be giving u a buzz as soon as i can. been workin 12-14 hr days and my kid is sick now and is in the hospitol rite now but is getting better. i hooked my sled up to the lap top and found out that my exhaust sensor is out of wack(didnt throw a code til i rode it a day after i already found out it was dipping and spiking while running on the stand) and now i found out today that they are back-ordered(go figure!!!)so i hafta wait on that now to get the darn thing out of fail safe... i think i have been fightin the bad sensor for a while now shoulda checked it sooner but the check engine light never once blinked before. i have a buddy up here at the polaris dealer that does a few turbos here and there and uses ur better boards quite a bit too(AWESOME PRODUCT!!!)
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