Daydreaming, big bore smoker shootout. BRC vs panthera!

[Norma Stitz]

So in my fantasy of a power up I had pretty much decided that BRC would be the ones to take my imaginary money. I was aware of panthera builds but I didn’t know they had made some big advancements. So, just curious what people think. Here’s what I’m seeing

BRC- 67HP
490cc
Power valve
Counterbalanced
TPI
Easy button
6sp
Standard cr500 pistons
complete kit includes ecu and pipe/silencer
Pile of parts left over worth ?$


PANTHERA- 85HP 6500usd
550cc
Power valve
Counterbalanced
Carb
Easy button
6sp
BYO pipe?
Complete engine left over worth $?

Now, the big questions are quality, engineering, reliability, and actual real world power comparison. The panthera package looks good, no ugly e start kludged onto the side. Are these engines similar in power when set up similarly on snow? I know the panthera claims 102hp but that seems a little spicey for all day snow use, where the brc is a little more conservative. Also, panthera quality on previous offerings was a little suspect, and I, concerned that this has continued on into this package.
thoughts?

 

[wwillf01]

Mine goes on the snow this weekend I will let you know... it dynoed close to 90 hp at the wheel. Everything seems quality and the clutch is super beefy... but it was a pain in the arse to fit.... or basically make a lower frame...

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[Norma Stitz]

Great can’t wait to hear about it! I don’t use a rekluse but for one of these it might make sense, especially if ever ridden on dirt. Leave in 5th gear all day and just let the rekluse do its magic. But is there an auto clutch option for either of these?

 

[Sheetmetalfab]

Great can’t wait to hear about it! I don’t use a rekluse but for one of these it might make sense, especially if ever ridden on dirt. Leave in 5th gear all day and just let the rekluse do its magic. But is there an auto clutch option for either of these?

The brc / ktm has auto clutch available. (Just buy for a 300) supposedly the primary gearing before the clutch makes the load the same on the clutch/ transmission.

 

[Norma Stitz]

The brc / ktm has auto clutch available. (Just buy for a 300) supposedly the primary gearing before the clutch makes the load the same on the clutch/ transmission.

Yeah I heard his comment on that and I’m trying to resolve how that works in my head. I can understand how that would reduce the strain, but to say that it’s the same as stock forces on it doesn’t add up to me. But, as long as it works who cares!
the fact that the panthera is a complete engine would seem to be a big advantage in several ways, as well as the claimed +20hp. I’m curious how they achieve this higher number however, assuming it’s with more aggressive porting and timing? The panthera uses custom made pistons, where the brc uses cast cr500 slugs. I’m actually leaning more panthera now. They claim they will have an efi engine before next snow season.

 

[CATSLEDMAN1]

however the shoot out would go, a good reliable two stroke with some balls on the snow is an instant winner. Its frustrating to be stuck on a 4 stroke hooked to a rubber track........way bad bad combination. 4 stroke engines in snowmobiles almost broke all the big three manufactures, 4's seemed like a good idea, looked like a good idea turned out to be flat duds.........thats the most flattering negative that comes to my mind. EFI clean powerful efficient light weight 2 strokes are all over the off road world, except in our sno bikes.
Makes me want to cry, someone please breakthrough to the other side.

 

[byeatts]

however the shoot out would go, a good reliable two stroke with some balls on the snow is an instant winner. Its frustrating to be stuck on a 4 stroke hooked to a rubber track........way bad bad combination. 4 stroke engines in snowmobiles almost broke all the big three manufactures, 4's seemed like a good idea, looked like a good idea turned out to be flat duds.........thats the most flattering negative that comes to my mind. EFI clean powerful efficient light weight 2 strokes are all over the off road world, except in our sno bikes.
Makes me want to cry, someone please breakthrough to the other side.

there are some advantages if the 4 stroke is built up right, The 4T over rev is Much higher at 11K which equates to higher track speed when traction is unloaded .

 

[tribalbc]

My biggest issue with 4 strokes is the engine braking. Hate it on dirt and even more on snow. Makes it way too front end heavy.

 

[M5-]

I rode a CR500 for 3 seasons, they are going to have to improve a lot of things and prove to be reliable before I'm back on a big bore 2T. Power was never the issue, the thing flat out ripped but my YZ is so much easier to live with in every way, change the oil, add fuel, push button, ride.

M5

 

[ravenous]

I rode a CR500 for 3 seasons, they are going to have to improve a lot of things and prove to be reliable before I'm back on a big bore 2T. Power was never the issue, the thing flat out ripped but my YZ is so much easier to live with in every way, change the oil, add fuel, push button, ride.

M5

I totally agree with this. I put 6 long seasons on my KX5. I spent hundreds of hours in the shop dialing it to perfection, and it is a great old bike in many ways. But I dont really miss it. It seems like my XCF is better everywhere and easier on me. This is hard for me to admit in public! I preached
2-strokes pretty hard over the years! The only thing I hate about my 450 is the noise. Its too effing loud. But this is an interesting topic. Making a big bore 2-stroke monster is really cool!

 

[tribalbc]

I rode a CR500 for 3 seasons, they are going to have to improve a lot of things and prove to be reliable before I'm back on a big bore 2T. Power was never the issue, the thing flat out ripped but my YZ is so much easier to live with in every way, change the oil, add fuel, push button, ride.

M5

I see lots of folks claim the same, the 500's were just too much issues.
My question is what was the issue, besides the vibration?
I think many did not properly sort out the jetting, hence the reputation. Yes 2 strokes are much more susceptible to pressure changes effecting jetting than 4 strokes. You could not ride a 2 stroke in the mountains with a stock carb. Myself I use an intellajet, others I know use lectrons or smart carbs. But the key is you need something to compensate for pressure changes or they will never run right.
So jetting compensation, carb heat and a decompression button for easy starting and then they are as reliable as any 4 stroke. 4 strokes come with there own issues as well such as over fueling.
This is my third season with my kx500 and that motor never misses a beat.

 

[Norma Stitz]

I’d always heard it was the vibration and carb issues, well, those are sorted now. My 300 is butter smooth and no carb at all. So, the issues are no longer, only now the issue is bore diameter. 300 is lacking. Luckily these two mfg are Canadian so they are familiar with snow bikes and the unique needs. The main problem I see is that we are the only ones who really need a big bore single smoker. Anything on wheels is fine with 300. Or if more is needed, they can run more cylinders etc.

 

[tribalbc]

Yes a counterbalanced 500 would be a beautiful thing.

 

[ravenous]

I see lots of folks claim the same, the 500's were just too much issues.
My question is what was the issue, besides the vibration?
I think many did not properly sort out the jetting, hence the reputation. Yes 2 strokes are much more susceptible to pressure changes effecting jetting than 4 strokes. You could not ride a 2 stroke in the mountains with a stock carb. Myself I use an intellajet, others I know use lectrons or smart carbs. But the key is you need something to compensate for pressure changes or they will never run right.
So jetting compensation, carb heat and a decompression button for easy starting and then they are as reliable as any 4 stroke. 4 strokes come with there own issues as well such as over fueling.
This is my third season with my kx500 and that motor never misses a beat.

The big 2-strokes dont really have any issues that cant be dealt with except vibration. Jetting, a decompressor, carb heat and a heat exchanger are essential. Then you have a slightly more civilized dinosaur. Its true that the motors themselves are as reliable as a hammer. But what the vibration does to the rest of the bike can become a reliability issue. The wide usable rpm spread of a 4 stroke is very helpful. My 450 is down a little power compared to the 500 for sure but the 450 makes up for it with rpm. I dont think my 500 used any more fuel than my 450. The old beast got pretty good mileage. And the overfueling issue of a 4 stroke is really easy to manage. Its just temperature management.

 

[portgrinder]

My vote would be on the one that has the most linear power. Looking for area under the curve. That’s what I focused on to make the 300 work well on snow. not too concerned about the peak number. I had a couple 90 horse setups on my k5 but I rode the pipe that made 75 because it lugged better down low and had more over-rev. (Needed 3 pipes and a welder on standby).

if you’re fussing around shifting all the time it won’t work too well.

Ide be interested to see how much travel the powervalve has on each setup.

 

[Norma Stitz]

My vote would be on the one that has the most linear power. Looking for area under the curve. That’s what I focused on to make the 300 work well on snow. not too concerned about the peak number. I had a couple 90 horse setups on my k5 but I rode the pipe that made 75 because it lugged better down low and had more over-rev. (Needed 3 pipes and a welder on standby).

if you’re fussing around shifting all the time it won’t work too well.

Ide be interested to see how much travel the powervalve has on each setup.

The dyno sheets on the panthera look extremely linear and just fat as hell the whole way through.

 

[M5-]

My main issue was the vibrations. My CR5 ate every piece of electrics attached to it. It destroyed GPS units in an afternoon, it broke LED light bars regularly, I couldn't keep a lighting coil alive for more than a few rides and I needed a sea can full of pipes, 2 to 3 rides and I was back welding. Don't get me wrong, I loved that bike it just didn't love me back. It had tons of low end, its a 500 cc single its going to have torque, I had all the jetting and carb heat issues resolved, decomp valve, the thing ran great but it was just a beast to ride. The old CR5 chassis was bad geometry, even with the WP front end I had on it, the bike had way too long of a wheel base plus it had a POS TS 137 kit. I bought a KTM frame and was going to an engine swap and get a new kit then decided fawk it, sold everything and went 4T, never looked back.

M5

 

[Norma Stitz]

Thanks? Don’t get me wrong but that’s apples to oranges I think. I was going down that road too and bailed even sooner because of those problems. But these are counterbalanced. Makes all the difference. I’m curious if you ever considered rubber mounting the engine?

 

[wwillf01]

I can tell you the Panthera is way smoother than my cr500 was ever. Unfortunately next week we will have to take it out. Had a issue with the chain roller placement... parts ordered.

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[M5-]

I'm sure the counter balance will be great. I'm personally just not as interested in building bikes and sleds as I used to be, and I've built a lot of both. I'm happy just bolting together a modern 4T and a new kit and then just adding gas and riding the thing. All the dickin' around never really got me anywhere more than where I can go right now. Guess I'm getting lazy.

M5