Legend Oil issues in 800 H.O. motor?

longlugs · Nov 6, 2015

I've been a big fan of Legend oil and have seen amazing results with it in my sleds, including my 2014 Pro 800. I received a call from a mechanic/friend today stating that I may want to reconsider using it in my 2016 Pro 800 H.O., based on a conversation he had with another client.

I called this other client up (trail rider) to discuss what issues he had with Legend oil in the new Poo motor. In a nutshell, he stated that there were some issues with RPM fade last year with the H.O. motor (I recall reading a few threads about it) and builders like Patriotic Innovations and Indy Dan were recommending not using Legend oil due to seeing many sleds with RPM fade also using Legend oil. Correlation but not causation, I guess.

Can anyone confirm or repudiate this? Any more information on the topic would be appreciated.

BILTIT · Nov 6, 2015

I call BS, Legend oil is top notch IMO.

Time will tell i guess.

greasemonkey3406 · Nov 6, 2015

Oil had nothing to do with the fade. Its a mix of different problems causing the ecu to go into limp mode. Seemed mostly to be caused by exhaust sealing, tps, heat....

prorideupper800 · Nov 12, 2015

Legend oil

I believe last year Indy Dan stated that full synthetic oil is required to provide proper crankshaft oiling preferably Polaris gold for Polaris motors.

JUDGED · Nov 12, 2015

INDY DAN'S POST BELOW. NOT ME.

"URGENT !! INJECTOR OIL UPDATE

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok, I am going to eat crow here and change my theory on Injector oil for most fuel injected motors and mainly the Polaris CFI 2 motors.

Its no secret that over the last few years that random rod bearing failure has crept its way into the Fuel injected sled market.

I have been a mineral base injector oil guy as long as I can remember.

That being said:

And I have been for 3 main reasons:

1 : its always worked good in the past and pistons looked great>
2 : its compatible with rubber crank seals
3 : it has the best rust protection.

Here is where I am going to switch my position 100% back to synthetic's

In the Polaris motors there has been an alarming change in fuel delivery from 2004 carbureted to 2006 - ( lets leave out the 2005 750/900 ) to keep this simpler.

Once the fuel stopped coming in thru the reed cage from carbs, and injectors started delivering fuel thru 4 injectors or 2, things have started to change in the rod bearing world and you can see the OEM's making them bigger and playing with different bearings and different clearances.

With random results.

AND - Most importantly, oil viscosities..... have been getting lower and lower to a level somewhat like water at room temp ( I.E. The new bagged Arctic Cat oil )

I did not start this thread to have a mass debate, I started it to save my a$$.......Because last spring & all summer I have been assembling motors with a heavy assembly lube in the rod & main bearings ( I believe this was a big mistake ) and hard to get rinsed out with a dry case.

in a CFI 2 motor Mid range and full throttle the fuel pretty much stays in the top of the motor unlike idle & low speed in & out of the throttle there is some fuel build up in the case helping to thin the injector oil and help suspend it so the rod can slice thru it so to speak.

Now here comes a BANK of theory's

#1 - Thought & concern - is the thicker injector oil or assembly lube in the rod bearing can vacuum lock the bearing cage so it cannot easily spin and move at the rate it needs to and can flat spot the rollers.

#2 - I have been using a heavy assembly lube in the center cavity for the drive gear and I am concerned in cold where that it will be hard for the is lube to get out of the center cavity thru the small drain under mag side center bearing that allows for that injector oil to help lube the mag rod bearing after its full enough.

I run 5-40 Extreme blue Valvoline in my Cummins so at cold start it can move oil easily...........I have come to the conclusion that these CFI fuel injectors motors need really thin oil to move thru the case easily since they no longer have fuel to thin the viscosity down to help get the oil to the rods and keep them lubed up and spinning free.

So I am to the point where the dread oil question that may forever live will be answered like this in a CFI 2 or 4 motor...........Run the factory injector oil or something with the same pour point or lower.

As far as exhaust valves go.........what ever works for the rod bearings will have to be tolerated for the exhaust valves no matter what happens on that end. It should be better with synthetic so it is said.

So to all my customers that have received motors that have not run yet, ** ** ( suck the oil tanks dry and fill them with thin viscosity synthetic right away, ) ** and these motors need a lot of low speed running to wash out the assembly lube in the warmest weather possible.

Sub zero weather with the assembly lube I used is almost sure to fail a lower rod bearing if its not rinsed out yet and grabs the roller cage.

I have already started contacting people VIA phone & e-mail but some we have not reached yet.

Thank you !!

Dan "

JUDGED · Nov 12, 2015

"Run the factory injector oil or something with the same pour point or lower.", so he is mainly saying don't run castrol gtx like he used to say would be just fine. I bet Legend and others are just fine. I will let the guys with real knowledge take over on this topic now.

longlugs · Nov 12, 2015

I read Indy Dan's post on HCS before I started this thread. It seems his main concern is with motors he was building, but it's a little tough to read. "Low pour point" seems to be recommended, which Legend has.

This also is a different reason that Patriotic Innovations was stating for not using Legend in the 800 H.O. Any other engine pros care to chime in?

Reg2view · Nov 12, 2015

Pour point-wise, I believe Legend states their SX-RS is lower than VES Gold, and just about every synthetic out there. I've personally poured Legend sub-zero, and it pours as well as Gold. FWIW.

Tuners who are the first to notice a RPM fade, and try to do something about it, may also be the same knowledgeable types who find Legend's marketing, and/or real attributes such as a 100% mineral-base, appealing, and are very open to switching oils. That correlation thing, not causation, again. I have no stock in Legend, just another observation.

There is a test for those that were running Legend and had fade this year - just go back to Gold.

steepndeep800 · Nov 12, 2015

Another oil thread

So if we know the Polaris oil is proven to be one of the best for the polaris motors, I have been told this by many reputable Polaris engine builders (Jack struthers Carls cycle, Indy Dan, Eric Hanson motors) Why do people continue to try and reinvent the wheel and argue about what is a better oil?
I'm about using what knowledge the professionals have come up with and not try to be smarter than them.
Will another oil work? Probably. Will it last as long? If it works why change it? If your clutches are working fine no one buys new ones and replaces them because they got used they replace them for performance But honestly polaris has spent a ton of time and money trying things to make there oil work the best in there Oil/Air/Fuel delivery system in there motors, not a E tech or a Cat but a Polaris designed engine and there is no proven performance or reliability to be gained.
My theory... people trying to save $ on oil. Thats like saying I'm gonna put in 87 octane fuel in my sled because its cheaper. not many do that and expect engines to live so why should we be putting cheaper oil in and expect it to live?

mountainhorse · Nov 12, 2015

Cmon.... a particular brand very high quality oil causing a phantom issue?

NOT likely AT ALL.

More "Rumor-Mill" fun at the expense of a great product.

.

.

Angermangement890 · Nov 12, 2015

mountainhorse said:
Cmon.... a particular brand very high quality oil causing a phantom issue?

NOT likely AT ALL.

More "Rumor-Mill" fun at the expense of a great product.

.

You should take a look at Dynotech. I am pretty sure he had 2 800 HO engines that were down on HP using a non factory oil. They removed the cyl, deglazed it and put fresh rings on. Replaced the non stock oil with VES Gold, and the power was back to what other sleds on VES Gold were at.

mountainhorse · Nov 12, 2015

I've read all of the Tech articles from Jim at DT... and the only one pulling references to oil on the AXYS 800-HO were of a guy who was religious in using VES.

There was another that was running "Walmart" oil that got had issues.

The one that mentions Legend oil used had "cold pipe" issues due to over fueling and had "planned to come back" after a hone/ring and a full dyno break-in with VES Gold.
To date, I have not seen anything as far as updates on this particular sled... AND I would love to read more if some links are available.

If results are posted where the power comes back up... is that due to fuel adjustments, the hone and rings...oil or an ideal break in.
What if the pipe temps were brought up to par... would that same engine have performed better?

So, to me, it would be a stretch to say that ANY brand of oil (VES G+, Legend, etc) was the cause of HIS issues... or the potential remedy in the future.

Too many variables to arrive at a cause/effect determination... IMO.

IMO also, I believe that the Legend oil is one of the highest quality oils out there... and use it in my sleds.... and I pay for all of my oil if anyone needs to know.

Dynotech: Brock’s engine (gold) seemed to have fairly high fuel flow, which may
have prevented us from getting his pipe temp hot as the others. Plus, his 2200 miles were
all with Legend mineral oil, which may have had some unintended effect on the engine.
...
Brock is planning to come back one more time—perhaps with rehone, new rings and
VES oil for breakin on the dyno like we did with Heath’s.

http://www.dynotechresearch.com/file_upload/page_files/Axys6MoreWithFU.pdf

.

AndrettiDog · Nov 12, 2015

Angermangement890 said:
You should take a look at Dynotech. I am pretty sure he had 2 800 HO engines that were down on HP using a non factory oil. They removed the cyl, deglazed it and put fresh rings on. Replaced the non stock oil with VES Gold, and the power was back to what other sleds on VES Gold were at.

That's the biggest line of BS I've read. Oil making less HP. I can see motor failure over time but in a simple HP test? C'mon....

kanedog · Nov 12, 2015

Legend oil myth-BUSTED!!!!

snowpromod · Nov 12, 2015

Here is a link to the thread on HCS, claim is 985 miles all on Legend Oil..and the pics that go along with it...not my motor or pics!
http://www.hardcoresledder.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15565025

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

snowmobiler · Nov 13, 2015

yikes.looks like a burnt skillit.ill guess somehow cooking oil got poured in the tank.LOL

longlugs · Nov 13, 2015

snowpromod said:
Here is a link to the thread on HCS, claim is 985 miles all on Legend Oil..and the pics that go along with it...not my motor or pics!
http://www.hardcoresledder.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15565025

Thanks for the link. Six pages of speculation so far. There are theories on power loss/fade, but certainly nothing conclusive. patrioticinnovations HCS post:

"The reason I started my thread about breaking my AXYS in on VES, was to determine whether VES oil wouldn't allow chrome rings to seat in Nicasil bores.

Many stated that it wouldn't.

I confirmed that it would. Yes, it took a while compared to those using Legend oil, but, it turns out that it should take longer because of superior lubrication rather than the extra friction caused by Legend, or other mineral oils.

Now, we may be seeing the biggest reason to use VES. Namely, to get lubrication into areas of the CFI engine that other oils won't/don't.

These pistons indicate to me that there appears to be excess wear on the pistons due to the wrong oil.
Careful measuring must be done to confirm it.

And now, let's talk about Fade. And a possible cause being Legend oil. Nearly every Legend oil user I know has experienced fade. And, it generally began at the reduced oil injection point of 18 hours. Excess piston wear could be creating piston slap that gets seen as mild detonation. No codes, but reduced power."

trackvs2wheels · Nov 13, 2015

How much is a gallon of Legend?

How much is a gallon of VES Gold?

If there is a $10-$12 difference...why even contemplate using something other than what the manufacturer of your $13k sled suggests using??????

longlugs · Nov 13, 2015

trackvs2wheels said:
How much is a gallon of Legend?

How much is a gallon of VES Gold?

If there is a $10-$12 difference...why even contemplate using something other than what the manufacturer of your $13k sled suggests using??????

Why do you suggest it's a money thing? I could give a crap what oil costs. I (and others) have had amazing results using Legend in past sleds (read first post). My concern lies with last seasons results with the H.O. motor. BTW, sleds now cost close to $15k.

Dirty Steve · Nov 13, 2015

I'll never understand why people are so passionate about oil brands. It seems so much easier just to run what the manufacturers recommend for the particular engine and go ride.

Oil threads are rad.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

Legend Oil issues in 800 H.O. motor?

Well-known member

Well-known member

Active member

Active member

Active member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Undefeated mountain clutching champ of the world.

Active member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Similar threads