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Your opinions about the best Secondary

T

TLKDPROD

Well-known member
First, let me say that I don't want to start a never ending debate on which is the best secondary clutches (like many other clutching threads I've read), we all know that bottom line, it's more how you tune it than the design of the secondary itself. Actually i'm more looking for facts here and I guess my question would be the following : which would be the most efficient secondary clutch available (for mountain / deep pow use) in terms of : power transferring / tuning capacity, heat dissipation capacity and "efficiency of the helix system" (button vs roller), weight... ?

I've seen lots of AC rollers on mod sleds as well as Team. I also heard that the XP's QRS wasn't a bad design as well.

Your opinions / personnal preferences and the reasons why. Thanks !
 
I've played with Cat roller, Cat DD (tension and tortion), Poo button, Team, Doo button, Doo roller, Doo QRS, Hyperlite.......of these I feel the Team and QRS have the most to offer for the mountains....at the bottom of the list are both the Cat clutches...JMO :beer;
 
I know some guys want to be told a certain brand of oem or aftermarket, I find it difficult to answer a question like that, drop a name and that's "the answer"

To keep from having a debate, then just look at the elements of your question.

power transferring / tuning capacity,
-One that has readily available helix's off the shelf or easy access or can beg, borrow or steal. Just about every brand oem/aftermarket has easy access, except team - those guys hose you for trying to get anything other than off their small product guide.

For me at one time I used to put P-85's on skidoos simply because I could get the clutches new from the factory cheap and there were 4 companies who had a large helix selection and one "formax" who would program up a helix with no program charge. These clutches at one time were the best for me.
Now a relationship with doo and dalton, the oem are the best for me becuase of part availability.

I think if you have a list of helix's and springs you want to try out, then can look at what is openly and quickly available in the market and used and go for that.

Right now I have a hyperlight secondary for my Rev, to which every cat helix oem/aftermarket fits and every secondary prewind spring from oem/aftermarket fit too, so the capacity to get that secondary to work for me whatever I do will be not so hard to do.

heat dissipation capacity
-Any secondary that does not have "windage trays" on, like polaris, doo, remove the trays to enhance cooling.
In the end, calibration that allows the engine to run "rated rpms" under full throttle and/or have rpms that are quick to recover will/should reveal the lowest temperatures.

and "efficiency of the helix system" (button vs roller)
-Roller is more efficient than the button however in the end its the internal parts that contribute to an efficient system. In the end its what's inside the secondary that make winning make/break system.

- weight... ?
QRS is lightest secondary, paragon is heaviest.

Personally from my experiences I favor the QRS and Paragon however the paragon is xpensive and lack of tuning parts. From my limited experiences with a few guys out west and knowing how they come calibrated excellent out of the box, well that that is just plain good stuff; (The Paragon you are buying 2 things, a good clutch calibration {maybe there is better} and a great clutch), damn, its just the price seems a lot however maybe the reduction of belts bought over the life of the sled, that is how you recover your "ROI" return on investment.

I like the QRS for the availability of easy access of parts and its a light secondary, robust and under load the sheaves keep parallel. I think the paragon is a gem of a secondary because of how the design allows the sheaves to be the most parallel under load. Both clutches do a great job of having the least value of major/minor distance across the sheaves while under full throttle to which contribute to least amount of belt wear (due to parallel sheaves)
I really really wish I could get some satisfaction of getting some other helix's made to test out in the paragon however just not available, still though my hat is off to Mr. Watt for bringing great ideas into the aftermarket that some oem's have copied.
 
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Thanks a lot guys !

Who manufactures the hyperlite clutch ? Never heard of that, tried google it, just krap comes up. Any link ?

Btw, not really looking to buy one, just wanted to hear what people had to say about them. Regardless of the secondary, it's all about making your way through the right setup when clutch tuning ! I got a Doo Button secondary on my 144" 800 Hawk that I got good results with last year. Still a bit of a lack of backshift with the purple sec spring & 50-40 helix but the stock suspension design just sucks (track gets tighter through the travel). But that'll be a solved problem next year...

I can borrow a few helixes from friends for sure and I think I might have to go shallower than 50-40 because of the new 2.5" x 150" full lug height track (narrowed down to 13") I'll be putting on sometime this summer.
 
Thanks a lot guys !
I got a Doo Button secondary on my 144" 800 Hawk that I got good results with last year. Still a bit of a lack of backshift with the purple sec spring & 50-40 helix

I can borrow a few helixes from friends for sure and I think I might have to go shallower than 50-40 because of the new 2.5" x 150" full lug height track (narrowed down to 13") I'll be putting on sometime this summer.

What is your gear ratio?
What is your engine rated rpms?
What mph of track speed "approximate" that you see backshift suffer?

reason I ask these question is with this information you can come close to a calculation of what helix angle you were using at that moment in time that you seen backshift suffer and then calculate a new helix angle...
...and leave all other calibration alone.
 
I am 90% sure my "poor backshift" was caused by too much track tightening. The real test will happen next season when i'll have the new skid underneath that thing... but here are a few numbers anyway (!) :

Gear Ratio : 13-28, 9 tooth 2.52 drivers
RPM : pulls best around 8050-8100 (800HO engine with RKtek drop in kit, Hawk 600HO Jaws pipe with stigner opened up to 41mm & Al's thing can.) Boivin says 7900 but that's with the stock setup I can tell 8100 pulls more than 7900 that's for sure.
Altitude : 3 to 7-8K.
Track : 13" wide by 144" Camo extreme 2.25 with angled trimmed side lugs
Track speed : can't say, I didin't have a speedo last season ! I'll have one of these next season though... I really have NO precise idea where my track speed is.
I weigh around 170, machine is around 410 dry.
Primary : 415 ramps, threaded pins with one little (is it 5mm?) set screw in each pin, purple/purple, clicker 3 or 4 depending on snow.

Last winter, I tried a Team with a straight 44 and a softer spring (can't tell which spring actually) with VERY poor results, everything worst than Doo button with the 50/40 - purple : acceleration & backshift was not as good, I can tell track speed wasn't as high because of badder deep snow performance.

Any first advice with the new track ? (13" by 150" 2.5" full height lugs). Should put a bit of a bigger load on the system. 3" pitch drivers are gonna be .25" smaller in diameter though...
 
Just want to be clearer here cauz I got it sounded a bit wrong : i'm more talking of : "track tightening problem when suspension compresses that creates such a load (or drag) throughout the system" than "poor backshift". Backshift got quicker from green to purple spring but such an additionnal load coming from bad suspension design has to be corrected first to expect very good results. That problem will be a thing of the past next fall anyway...
 
The QRS works well. 2nd choice would be the Team for a slight edge.

Both the Hyperlite, Paragon and Heel X imo have to much rotating mass when compared to the QRS or Team.

99% of Skidoo snocross racers run Team secondarys.

IMO save your money when it comes to the secondary and spend your money to improve the TRA primary. The stock primary needs alot of help when it comes to efficiant performance in deep snow.

FYI , i don't sell clutch parts my experiance comes from riding skidoo for 12 years and living and riding in western wyoming where the snow is always deep.

OT
 
Thanks to all of you guys !

I really wasn't expecting the same kind of answer from everybody !

I thought you'd put way more sand in the gears on that one OT ;) (been reading all of the other "debate" threads, I kind of know everybody even if I never posted anything on the doo forum)

QRS & Team. Now I know, again thanks to ya'all !
 
Cat roller secondary with 45 degree helix and yellow spring. You can machine it to have it fit on a ski-doo jackshaft. You lose reverse but it works great.

Evan
 
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