Install the app
How to install the app on iOS

Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.

Note: This feature may not be available in some browsers.

  • Don't miss out on all the fun! Register on our forums to post and have added features! Membership levels include a FREE membership tier.

What you don't know about your guide/riding school.

S

snowww1

Well-known member
Just a heads up. Have had a few guide services bring it to my attention again that guide and riding school requirements for avalanche education vary tremendously from area to area. I checked into it. Regulations vary within the same state, depending on which office of the USFS issues the permit. Some require level I or level II training, others nothing.

Don't assume your guide/riding school has adequate avalanche training. Many areas have no or minimum avalanche training requirements. You may have more training than your guide. Hopefully you do.

Anyone can state they have "experience" in avalanche training or rescue, ask what level of training they have. If they have it, they usually list it. If not listed, be suspect.

The average snowmobile guide requirements are well below that of what the ski industry requires. We're accessing the same type of terrain. I'm hearing of some bad experiences of people hiring guides who are not up to par.

Here is the American Avalanche Association's U.S. Avalanche education progression. Level I training just requires participation, no test.
picture.php


Mike Duffy
Avalanche1.com
Avalanche education for mountain riders.
 
Good post Mike.

I have my Canadian Level 1 OPS which looks to be on par with the AV Pro in the US. (It was 80 hrs and required AST1 and AST2 as prerequisites). I teach Companion Rescue Skills and AST1 courses and I am an Active member of the CAA. Avalanche safety training is an imporatant part of my daily guiding operations as well as all of my riding clinics.

Cheers,
Chris
 
I also believe this is dangerously overlooked. Awesome on Chris for being so proactive! I currently have an AIARE level 1 certification and cannot take my level 2 for 1 year from the date of my level 1. My goal is to become an AIARE certified instructor asap. I am partnered with an avalanche school to put on Snowmobiler Intro to Avalanche Safety Courses. They have 2 AIARE certified instructors that I assist. It is very important in our program to incorporate avalanche safety and awareness into every day operations. All clients of Mountain Skillz are required to wear a beacon and backpack containing a shovel and probe. I have loaner sets of BCA gear for any client in need and equally important, we stress familiarity with the equipment and make sure they know how to use each element properly.
 
It's guys like you that will keep this industry safer. I think people are so much more in tune when they learn the topics and situations in the field with riders who they can relate with rather than in a classroom. When I took my AST 1 and 2 I was stoked to see the involvement up there. Good to see Matt being proactive too down here! Still baffles me how many people we get that come in our store and say they dont ride in avalanche terrain.... Most of them are way more into buying a new GoPro or sticker pack than a beacon...
 
I appreciate the extra value that a guide brings to the table if he is "1st rsponder" trained & avy trained etc.

But in all honesty, if I hire a guide my only concern is that he knows how & where to find us the best riding possible.
If we could get that guy for $300/day or the fully trained guy for $350/day we will save the $50 for sled fuel.

I know I'll get blasted, but this is an honest reply.
 
Blown Motor,
It is surprising to keep hearing the statement " I don't ride in avalanche terrain". I hand them a slope meter and then ask what sled they ride. You ride an 800 and don't ride anything over 30 degrees?

As far as classroom, I feel it is essential to gain the basic knowledge in class and then to follow it up with on the snow training. I have had people show up for on the snow training without a classroom session and they hold up the rest of the group. Next thing they need to do is keep learning and practicing.

Taking classes from snowmobilers who have a snowmobile specific curriculum is a much better use of students time. You will not waste time learning techniques that only apply to skiers and snowboarders.

Mike Duffy
www.avalanche1.com
 
Chris Brown is the benchmark for snowmobile guides/schools. Wish more guides had his level of expertise.

In the ski industry, you are not even considered for an assistant guide or teacher unless you have level II training.

In snowmobiling, many consider themselves to have extensive experience with level I training. This is an introduction to avalanche fundamentals course. In my area, snowmobile guides are required to have level II training.

What difference does it make?
Someone like Chris Brown has taken over 100 hours of classes, practiced the skills, studied and passed difficult exams to show that he is more than proficient in all areas of avalanche stability analysis and rescue.

What difference does it make to the guest?
Can make the difference between life and death in a rescue. Also better decisions in selecting terrain. One study showed that the buried person has a 70% better chance of surviving if the rescuer had training and was practiced.

Why don't snowmobile guides have better training?
It's not required of them to work in most areas. All serious guides have higher levels of training and practice their skills. Unfortunately, in many areas the USFS doesn't require much training and anyone can start a guide service.
Another problem is that most level I & II classes require that the class be completed on skis or a splitboard. They exclude snowmobilers on snowmobiles. Gallatin National Forest and Silverton Avalanche School offer level I & II classes for snowmobilers.

Mike Duffy
Avalanche1.com
Snowmobile specific avalanche classes.
 
I appreciate the extra value that a guide brings to the table if he is "1st rsponder" trained & avy trained etc.

But in all honesty, if I hire a guide my only concern is that he knows how & where to find us the best riding possible.
If we could get that guy for $300/day or the fully trained guy for $350/day we will save the $50 for sled fuel.

I know I'll get blasted, but this is an honest reply.

You might also wanna be concerned if your guide is gonna get you to and back from that awesome riding area alive. Or maybe they could teach you some skills that could save yours or somebody else's life someday... But hey you got that extra gas money in you pocket... Hope it's worth it.
 
i'm with you mafesto. peeps with avy training die every year from avalanches. peeps in groups being guided by peeps with avy training die every year from avalanches. if you've spent any time in the back country and don't have the common sense to realize when its safe and when its not then maybe you do need to take a class so you can run around with your avy 1 credentials and feel like your safer than everyone else. an avalanche can take anyone at anytime, sometimes it just comes down to being at the wrong place at the wrong time.

nothing beats real world experience and too many people think taking a class takes place of this. its proved time and time again every year that its not. i'll take a guy whose spent years in the woods who has first hand experience at actually seeing the conditions and knowing what the risks are. how do you think people survived all the years before avy training? i would say by paying attention to thier surroundings and the conditions at hand and using common sense. not everyone walks through life needing people to point out the obvious, some people pay enough attention to notice it for themselves. so if you feel like avy training is what you want, great, but please don't tell me that i'm doomed to die because i don't. its preaching like that that turns people off. feel free to flame me all you want, i only value two peoples opinions and your not one of them;)

89sandman
avy none
 
I do a significant amount of research on snowmobile avalanche fatalities. Here's some quick facts;

-Approximately 80% of all avalanche fatalities in the U.S. last year occurred on high danger days. Riders aren't checking the avalanche report, aren't altering their riding according to the danger or aren't recognizing the instability.

-67% of the snowmobile avalanche fatalities in the U.S. last year were a direct result of the searchers not being proficient with beacons, buried person not having a beacon or the searcher not having a beacon.

-44% of the rescues were unsuccessful due to not being proficient with beacons. This is where the avalanche training really pays off.

-In 56% of the snowmobile fatalities, multiple riders were caught or in the runout and had to move. This is a common mistake with riders and is resulting in fatalities.

Years ago, not many snowmobilers were getting caught in avalanches since the machines couldn't access many of the avalanche prone areas. New machines have increased the exposure to avalanches and more riders are getting caught.

It's not common sense for many people on how to pull off an effective rescue, analyze stability in the snowpack, determine islands of safety or how to prevent accidents. If this was true, riders wouldn't be repeating the same mistakes every year. This is where an instructors experience, research and training can be passed on. I'm a big fan of education, it saves a lot of time, instead of learning by trial and error. If you use trial and error in avalanche terrain, it can cost a life. Not worth it in my opinion. Classes start at $40 in most areas, funeral is about $9000. Most victims perceived knowledge is much greater than their actual knowledge.

I agree that a class is not a replacement for real world experience. The best combination is classes, on snow training, practicing skills and spending time in the mountains.

Many riders are just wearing beacons and have not spent the time to become proficient with the beacons. The average person only practices 1 hour a year with their beacon.

Talk to anyone who has taken a class and they think it's very worthwhile. There's a reason snowmobilers in the US have not been number one for avalanche fatalities for the last couple of years. More are buying the gear, getting the training and pulling off some very impressive rescues after the training. We have increased our exposure to avalanches and many are now increasing their training to increase their odds. The people who are taking the classes are the serious riders. I have taught pro riders, guides, racers, test riders and many riders who appear in movies. They realize the training works.

Are all avalanche accidents preventable? Yes, if you stay out of the mountains, but that's not why we buy 800 mtn sleds. 90% of the fatalities are due to you or someone in your group triggering an avalanche that kills someone in your group. By learning some rescue techniques, terrain and stability analysis, and group dynamic skills, you can increase your odds tremendously. That's why snowmobilers are taking classes and sled manufacturers are supporting education and better avalanche gear, it's also why snowmobile avalanche fatalities are decreasing.

My goal is to decrease avalanche accidents and fatalities among snowmobilers. It's sad to see fatalities that could have been prevented with some avalanche training.

I will not ride with people who do not have the training, carry the right gear and know how to use it.

The point of this thread was to increase awareness to the fact that avalanche education requirements for guides differ tremendously from area to area. I have been contacted by many riders who found out the hard way that their guide didn't have the skills they thought they did. Point is that there are no industry standards for guide services and you should ask what training your guide has. Canada has stricter standards than the US for guiding. If I got buried, I want the best trained people searching for me.

Some people value education and training, others do not. Some are disciplined enough to train, practice and learn on their own. In anything, I prefer to learn from those who have more experience than I do since it makes for a steeper learning curve.

I also prefer to ride with those who value training and education.

Mike Duffy
 
Last edited:
Snowww1....i took your class in Bismarck, ND this past season...and in all reality...the #1 thing that sticks in my head is that slope meter, we actually talk about it all the time. We (group i ride with) have taken a different look at what we ride and look for outs/safe spots. When previously we had over looked many things. 1 in my group also took the class, and have since have taken WAY more consideration to what/how we ride it. I want to Thank you for giving me the information that you presented not out of a book, but from experiences/raw facts. Thanks again

Lucas Vogelsang
 
Premium Features



Back
Top