EXACTLY!!!
Remember, not everybody in a production environment is as smart as us.
Quote of the year...
What kind of motorsports company GLUES their products together?
- Thread starter Matte Murder
- Start date
Quote of the year...
H
HOTRODREDNECK
Well-known member
lmao
Seems to be a disconnect comparing some seriously, seriously , expensive sporting machines to being massed produced on an assmebly line ? I know a person that sold her Aston Martin because no one could service it had to ship it out of state to get the oil changed , a little more to it but a true story 
H
HOOCH256
Well-known member
Cmon man how many times do we have go through with this? It's personal preference! I can ride my PC better then a pro any day of the week, the pro chassis just don't work for me!
Back on topic I def do not doubt the abilities of these new adhesives that we have available these days. But also remember that Aston Martin and NHRA racers using these glue's are not mass produced they are all hand built items, lil more quality control when something is hand made. This is just my opinion in the matter!
Sent from my super duper sweet iPhone using Tapatalk when I should be doing something productive!
G
Going West
Well-known member
Cmon man, this is the Poo section, where allowed to claim our sleds are the best. You dont have to get up set just cause its the truth.
not saying my sled is the best either but for me it works better!Hand built in no way guarantees quality. A lot of hand built products are crap ( in no way implying this to the afore mentioned companies). Hand built does introduce alot of potential for human error. Properly planned, designed, and checked mass production units can be just as high of quality.
The difference comes in that every hand built unit all pieces are checked against spec, and if out, rebuilt or replaced. Hence the cost. Mass produced parts are checked in the order of every 1/1000. If something happens on part 2/1000 you have a lot of pieces out of whack and issues like we are seeing with parts
The issue doesn't lie in the process but the quality control
O
ottawaair
Active member
Only difference i can think of in the above mentioned items being glued together, is that those products probably never see the multidirectional forces these driveshafts see. Hard acceleration, hard brakes, over and over.
combined with the upward load of the belt (man those belts are tight) always pulling at the end piece.
If nothing else, it seems the end cap section should have extended further in the drive tube.
The glue is exceptional no doubt, I love it on the chassis, but this is like glueing the ends of 2 toothpicks together. Just not enough surface area for the glue to bond to. Plus the force is only being applied to about a 1/2" of the tube end.
I would dare say, a nhra driveshaft end piece is inserted more than 3/8" to 1/2" into the carbon fiber tube.
combined with the upward load of the belt (man those belts are tight) always pulling at the end piece.
If nothing else, it seems the end cap section should have extended further in the drive tube.
The glue is exceptional no doubt, I love it on the chassis, but this is like glueing the ends of 2 toothpicks together. Just not enough surface area for the glue to bond to. Plus the force is only being applied to about a 1/2" of the tube end.
I would dare say, a nhra driveshaft end piece is inserted more than 3/8" to 1/2" into the carbon fiber tube.
Is Lord's 406 stronger than welding?
Standard E70XX welding electrode is rated at 70,000 psi yield strength, in tension and shear, 21,000 psi working stress, and has a young's stiffness modulus of 29,000,000 psi.
Lords's adhesive has a tensile strength at failure of 4650 psi, elongates 30% at failure, and has a young's stiffnes modulus of 130,000 psi. The lords 406 has 30% elongation at failure. Lords uses an unconservative static load rating of 2650 psi at room temperature, which assumes a factor of safety of 1.75. Full stress reversal factors of safety for steel is in the vicinity of 9. Which means the Lords 406 would have a stress reversal load rating of 520 psi with 3% elongation. The welding metal and base metal is 223 times stiffer than the lords adhesive.
http://www.ambercomposites.com/downloads/datasheet/lord-403---406--410-with-19-19gb-march-06.pdf
Answer: No. They are not even in the same ballpark.
Standard E70XX welding electrode is rated at 70,000 psi yield strength, in tension and shear, 21,000 psi working stress, and has a young's stiffness modulus of 29,000,000 psi.
Lords's adhesive has a tensile strength at failure of 4650 psi, elongates 30% at failure, and has a young's stiffnes modulus of 130,000 psi. The lords 406 has 30% elongation at failure. Lords uses an unconservative static load rating of 2650 psi at room temperature, which assumes a factor of safety of 1.75. Full stress reversal factors of safety for steel is in the vicinity of 9. Which means the Lords 406 would have a stress reversal load rating of 520 psi with 3% elongation. The welding metal and base metal is 223 times stiffer than the lords adhesive.
http://www.ambercomposites.com/downloads/datasheet/lord-403---406--410-with-19-19gb-march-06.pdf
Answer: No. They are not even in the same ballpark.
WITG,
I can see that you want to be a positive contributor to the fourms and that you have a technical background... I just don't see where you are going with your "contrarian" posts related to adhesives.
We still do not know what kind of adhesive is used in the Driveshafts and I doubt we will at this point.
BUT... Adhesives have proven themselves in very highly regulated mfg such as passenger aircraft, marine, aerospace, and miltary applications.
It is NOT the USE of adhesive here... but the application of the material to the driveshaft or the mixing that seem to be in play here.
Adhesives allow you to distribute the forces over a larger area.
I've NOT heard of bond-site failures of any of the PRO Chasiss components except for recent drive shaft bond issues... And that seems now to be related to mfg. errors in mixing the adhesive rather than the adhesive itself.
I've personally used the LORD 406/19GB methacrylic adhesive in areas of yacht construction where welding would not have been practical... plus the finished bonded component (platforms for 40kva generators) was stronger than the welded component in the end as the load was distributed over a much wider area.
Make no mistake about it, the use of bonding systems in vehicle and industrial systems is a sound engineering and mfg process.
Yes... there are areas were welding is a better process than bonding... but in todays world adhesives are offering solutions where none existed previously... and often in a superior way.
I can see that you want to be a positive contributor to the fourms and that you have a technical background... I just don't see where you are going with your "contrarian" posts related to adhesives.
We still do not know what kind of adhesive is used in the Driveshafts and I doubt we will at this point.
BUT... Adhesives have proven themselves in very highly regulated mfg such as passenger aircraft, marine, aerospace, and miltary applications.
It is NOT the USE of adhesive here... but the application of the material to the driveshaft or the mixing that seem to be in play here.
Adhesives allow you to distribute the forces over a larger area.
I've NOT heard of bond-site failures of any of the PRO Chasiss components except for recent drive shaft bond issues... And that seems now to be related to mfg. errors in mixing the adhesive rather than the adhesive itself.
I've personally used the LORD 406/19GB methacrylic adhesive in areas of yacht construction where welding would not have been practical... plus the finished bonded component (platforms for 40kva generators) was stronger than the welded component in the end as the load was distributed over a much wider area.
Make no mistake about it, the use of bonding systems in vehicle and industrial systems is a sound engineering and mfg process.
Yes... there are areas were welding is a better process than bonding... but in todays world adhesives are offering solutions where none existed previously... and often in a superior way.
Steel
Aluminum and steel welding are not equal. Bonding the parts is stronger because the weld heat affected zone doesnt happen. Welding aluminum weakens the area right next to the joint.
Aluminum and steel welding are not equal. Bonding the parts is stronger because the weld heat affected zone doesnt happen. Welding aluminum weakens the area right next to the joint.
Been using a carbon fiber driveshaft in my race car since 2003. Had a failure in Calgary in 2006... At the top end of the 1/4 mile just as the GForce was shifted into high gear. The ensuing "vibration" of front end of the shaft whipping around at high rpm until the car came to a stop broke parts in the car I never would have thought possible.... I had always handled that shaft so carefully because I heard they were fragile. Once we finally got under the car to inspect the failure I was absolutely amazed; it was the aluminum end yoke that had failed, not the carbon fiber or the bond to the yoke. The shaft took the most violent beating imaginable and survived! As did the bond....!
I definitely have full respect for composites and high tech adhesives when done right. Yeah, I'm a Doo rider (for now) but I love how Polaris is pushing the industry forward with lightweight machines and trick parts.
On a side note, the manufacturer of my driveshaft, PST, warranted the shaft for me ( unheard of in the motorsports industry). High fives to them!!
M
miko700
Well-known member
bonds
Actually in the automotive world...where many various glues have been used for years....(lords included) and yes the car yer driving now most likely has glued steel/aluminum components. There has been tremendous success. Most repairs done on your vehicles after you have a collision are done with epoxies....of course this is to factory specifications and keep in mind these are mostly the "structural repairs" of your vehicle.....meaning front rails(engine support area) and various other parts of your vehicles unibody. These are done in conjunction with welding but at a much lower heat and mostly spot welds (the large mig/plug weld is going the way of the dodo)
Sorry I have to disagree with the previous comment regarding epoxies are "better on plastics" generally this is not the case. It is indeed essential to choose the right epoxy for the job as they have different chemical makeups engineered for certain applications. With metal substrates it is easier to "match up" the proper epoxy for the job. With plastics it is essential you first identify the plastic then choose the right one if u dont...yer s.o.l.
My prediction.......sleds in the future will have much more epoxies used all over the machines. And for what its worth in the automobile industry using "that damn glue" scared the heck outta me also 15 years ago, But when u see car after car year after year going through major hits and u inspect the epoxied areas they are very impressive.
Will some woody at the factory not prepare metal properly or not squeeze the tube evenly etc....yep!...definately...and that will suck.
But i havent really seen many guys in here that have experience with epoxies complain much....i also hope though polaris has done their homework cause ill be ridin one also!
Actually in the automotive world...where many various glues have been used for years....(lords included) and yes the car yer driving now most likely has glued steel/aluminum components. There has been tremendous success. Most repairs done on your vehicles after you have a collision are done with epoxies....of course this is to factory specifications and keep in mind these are mostly the "structural repairs" of your vehicle.....meaning front rails(engine support area) and various other parts of your vehicles unibody. These are done in conjunction with welding but at a much lower heat and mostly spot welds (the large mig/plug weld is going the way of the dodo)
Sorry I have to disagree with the previous comment regarding epoxies are "better on plastics" generally this is not the case. It is indeed essential to choose the right epoxy for the job as they have different chemical makeups engineered for certain applications. With metal substrates it is easier to "match up" the proper epoxy for the job. With plastics it is essential you first identify the plastic then choose the right one if u dont...yer s.o.l.
My prediction.......sleds in the future will have much more epoxies used all over the machines. And for what its worth in the automobile industry using "that damn glue" scared the heck outta me also 15 years ago, But when u see car after car year after year going through major hits and u inspect the epoxied areas they are very impressive.
Will some woody at the factory not prepare metal properly or not squeeze the tube evenly etc....yep!...definately...and that will suck.
But i havent really seen many guys in here that have experience with epoxies complain much....i also hope though polaris has done their homework cause ill be ridin one also!
I work for a trailer manufacturer and we recently started using acrylic adhesives in construction of some of our trailers. After many hours or research and testing I can guarantee you that these products flat out work when used properly. I've ridden Ski-Doo for years and am currently waiting for my XM to show up, but I applaud Polaris for incorporating these adhesives into manufacturing.
Just a couple of things I've read that really shouldn't concern you that maybe I can help clear up after having used A LOT of this acrylic adhesive. (1) They are not an epoxy. Epoxy is entirely different than acrylic and also has it's application. (2) It would be almost impossible to mix the acrylic incorrectly in a production setting because it is done by the mixing tube on the dispenser. Our guns are pneumatic and distribute the the two components correctly that then go through the mixing tube (not done by humans, no human error) (3) There is no way that using adhesives is less expensive than welding especially when you compare the raw cost of the two. My opinion is that Polaris pays more for the adhesives to give you, the customer, a better product. (4) Acrylic adhesives do very well when bonding plastic, steel, aluminum or even glass. (5) Depending on the application and stresses involved acrylic adhesives can be stronger than welds especially when the product is designed to move (such as trailers and snowmobiles). (6) Human error could affect the glued joint if not properly cleaned prior to bonding or if the adhesive is old or improperly stored. It has a shelf life of 6 months (I think) and must be stored at a temp around 40 degrees f (I think). If it is stored improperly it will usually dry in the tube and render itself unuseable.
We did a lot of sample testing with these adhesives on pieces of tubing both steel and aluminum and then tried to destroy or make the joint fail. In most cases the steel or aluminum failed before the adhesive.
Just a couple of things I've read that really shouldn't concern you that maybe I can help clear up after having used A LOT of this acrylic adhesive. (1) They are not an epoxy. Epoxy is entirely different than acrylic and also has it's application. (2) It would be almost impossible to mix the acrylic incorrectly in a production setting because it is done by the mixing tube on the dispenser. Our guns are pneumatic and distribute the the two components correctly that then go through the mixing tube (not done by humans, no human error) (3) There is no way that using adhesives is less expensive than welding especially when you compare the raw cost of the two. My opinion is that Polaris pays more for the adhesives to give you, the customer, a better product. (4) Acrylic adhesives do very well when bonding plastic, steel, aluminum or even glass. (5) Depending on the application and stresses involved acrylic adhesives can be stronger than welds especially when the product is designed to move (such as trailers and snowmobiles). (6) Human error could affect the glued joint if not properly cleaned prior to bonding or if the adhesive is old or improperly stored. It has a shelf life of 6 months (I think) and must be stored at a temp around 40 degrees f (I think). If it is stored improperly it will usually dry in the tube and render itself unuseable.
We did a lot of sample testing with these adhesives on pieces of tubing both steel and aluminum and then tried to destroy or make the joint fail. In most cases the steel or aluminum failed before the adhesive.
H
HPJUNKIE
Active member
This company has done it for years! Mattel - "Hot Wheels"!