WHat if we lost all of our vendors on these forums

[backcountryislife]

Alot of these guys are paid advertizers on here and deserve our respect, if you dont feel this way then just keep it to your self or block them so you dont have to listed to there input.

Being a paid advertiser does not make them DESERVE ANYTHING.

What it DOES do though, is give them a chance to EARN our respect.

Paying for advertising doesn't make someone any better than the next guy, but like I said above, if you're here helping people, like MANY of our advertisers do on here, THAT earns them the respect of the members on here. If one of those respected vendors is being bashed & doesn't deserve it, there are enough intelligent members on here that are willing to stick their neck out to defend someone, that they usually do if it's unfounded.

Funny that some people feel that buying a chunk of digital space makes them entitled to be treated differently than anyone else.... doesn't work that way in my world.

Btw, good post, I agree with 90% of what you're saying & the general idea, just picking on this one thing!

 

[diamonddave]

Moving this thread to the general forum, the facts have been lost.

What caused my post that lead to this thread, was the fact that in an informational thread of said vendor, he felt it necessary to bash another brand of piston that is sold by a competitor of his. Then cleverly claims it's not a shot at the vendor.

This testing was all done on pump gas with a 100% stock engine.

Our "Drop In" kit simply takes it to he next level.

Having said that, I still feel, very strongly, that the OEM pistons are a problem.. I get far too many calls and have seen too many failures.. Even if the piston has not completely failed, if you measure the piston it is usually WAY out of tolerance after a short time of running. We have seen this countless times.. The Wiseco pistons will suffer skirt collapse usually within 200 miles on a decent size bore..

Yes, the cheater head offers the same performance.

We have quite a few new "projects" in store for the 800 this season..

We are doing our best to try and get this power-plant to produce the power it should and be reliable. Testing continues all season..as usual with our shop.

This competitor has had this product out in the public for 2-3 years longer than the offended vendor (who started his FYI) which has an impeccable record...

The vendor in question here is not a "site sponsor" to my knowledge. He has only paid the same user fee that I have.


Why couldn't the vendor in question leave out the bold? Was it necessary?

 

[friscospices.com]

I agree deserve was the wrong choice of words.

 

[diamonddave]

This will happen to someone this year, all I'm saying is start your own thread with your issue maybe the vendor will respond to make things right, or maybe another vendor will step to the plate and we will all see how it turns out. Specifically what I am talking about is following a vendor around on HIS posts bashing him personally and his products. We can PM customers to shy away from a vendor and state your case but to bring up stuff from 5 years ago in order to shed bad light on a vendor in his own thread to me is chasing them away.

I really hope this is just a general statement and not an accusation?

 

[friscospices.com]

It was in general, but bringing up issues from 4 or 5 years ago was a grasp at bashing said vendor on his thread. Lets not get this started again. Have a good day!

 

[AKSNOWRIDER]

Frisco, I see no reason in the world why a paying vendor should have the right to some kind of protection from post that enlighten members..Why? I too paid to be on this sight..when I see a vendor making post that say his product fixes reliability issues on a motor many are scared to ride yet offers no irrefutable proof/ warranty to back up his claims..yeah I have to say something,does no one think its odd that he makes a simple piston kit to "fix" the CFI-2 yet wouldnt touch a CFI-4 motor for nothing because as he stated, "there is no way to fix it"..yet these motors are for all intents and purposes identical mechanically..(including pistons and crank)?



I have no issue if a vendor post up that "so far in their endeavors it appears their parts have seemed to add some reliability" ..but to keep making claims that it "fixes the piston issues" is misleading and not proven...odd how 2 of the top polaris engine builders out there have both said that there is no way these "kits" will fix the reliability issues..... now if kelsey backed his kit with a good warranty that protects the unknowning consumer then hey great..he can make all the claims he wants as long as he backs his warranty.........until then.. I will continue to tell peeple that I would not use nor recommend his "kit".......

 

[friscospices.com]

and no one can stop you have a good day

 

[RKT]

Frisco, I see no reason in the world why a paying vendor should have the right to some kind of protection from post that enlighten members..Why? I too paid to be on this sight..when I see a vendor making post that say his product fixes reliability issues on a motor many are scared to ride yet offers no irrefutable proof/ warranty to back up his claims..yeah I have to say something,does no one think its odd that he makes a simple piston kit to "fix" the CFI-2 yet wouldnt touch a CFI-4 motor for nothing because as he stated, "there is no way to fix it"..yet these motors are for all intents and purposes identical mechanically..(including pistons and crank)?



I have no issue if a vendor post up that "so far in their endeavors it appears their parts have seemed to add some reliability" ..but to keep making claims that it "fixes the piston issues" is misleading and not proven...odd how 2 of the top polaris engine builders out there have both said that there is no way these "kits" will fix the reliability issues..... now if kelsey backed his kit with a good warranty that protects the unknowning consumer then hey great..he can make all the claims he wants as long as he backs his warranty.........until then.. I will continue to tell peeple that I would not use nor recommend his "kit".......

WOW!!
Continually bringing my name into these thread is flattering but It would be nice to have it referenced with FACTS vs. preceived (what you WANT it to mean) inference..

I prefer to stay out of these threads but since you continually bring my name into them, I feel obligated to at least TRY and set the record straight since facts are getting skewed.

1) RED... Would you please tell everyone where it is stated that this kit totally "fixes" the engine problems? PLEASE Ask anyone who has spoken with me and , in fact, even reference my posts on this forum where I CLEARLY state that there are "other" issues associated with this engine.. These points are clearly referenced in these threads as well as with EVERY phone call..
Again.. What is the basis of your misinterpretation..? Why do you continue to put forth claims of what I am saying when the material shows this to be not the case?
I do type in a rush , and, who knows, there may be 1 or 2 instances where I chose the improper wording (in my haste) (not sure if this is the case or not.. but anything is possible) but to continually disect each and every sentence I write, looking for hidden meanings, is simply unfair and becoming tiresome..

2) Orange The below are SIMPLE requests and I am ASKING in the most polite manner this font allows me to ask..Honestly

Please inform me how you know what testing I have done and what "proof" I have do or do not have regarding ANYTHING with these engines?
Again, where is this information about my testing procedure and history stemming from?

You are NOT employee at my shop where I do my testing? Nor have you ridden with me. In fact, you are not even in the same continent.. YET, you seem to have this "insight" to my daily operations... I simply do not get it.

Where does this "factual" (since you like to keep it factual) information source from? I am asking as nicely as I can...
It is also stated that I have VERY few kits out there on the snow and that other kits have more out there.. This may or may not be true.. But, I ask again, where is this source of information?

I will ask again.. "How many kits do I have in the consumer world?

3) GREEN This is EXACTLY what I state with my website and threads..
YOU state that you have no problem with that sort of statement/reference..
YET, in reality you seem to have a problem with it?? Again, this is confusing.

Would it not be easier to just read the statements for what they clearly state or do not state vs. trying to find some "subliminal" meaning in each and every sentence?.. What you are inferring is simply NOT present... Sorry

4)PURPLE Please see 1 thru 3 above... We have found, what we feel, to be internal piston issues,, and , like any good shop, we have done our best to address these issues with our piston design.. Where this "fixes ALL" engine issues reference comes from... I just don't know??

A little history....

We have been designing our own pistons for a VERY long time.. We have a very unique process to our piston manufacturing and these pistons are truely one of a kind..
They are designed from a blank piece of paper and have withstood the test of time and proven to work very well...

We are very forunate to be able to work with a leader in piston manufacturing that allows us to put our own design criteria into the manufacturing and design process.. Very fortunate.. because the resulting product achieves the intended results we were seeking....

This product is the result of over 7 years of continous R&D.. It was an uphill journey for sure... but, again, we are happy and confident with the results.

I will state again... I ,honestly, prefer to stay out of these threads, but posting unsupported statements about a company or person is exactly what is happening and this is VERY IRONIC because what you are doing with me is exactly what you are accusing me of doing

ALL I ask is that references be kept factual... Really, I think this is fair and reasonable.. Is it not?

 

[AKSNOWRIDER]

Kelsey, I did use your name..my apologies...I missed that I did, and if I would have noticed it before..it would not have been left there.........so again..my apologies........

First Kelsey..no where does it say Kelsey or RKT..no where in this thread.........next....did you or did you not in post 17 on this thread
http://www.snowestonline.com/forum/showthread.php?t=299453



say this in answer to post 3 ?

Originally Posted by rmk727
So are we purchasing it for engine reliability or is the power enhancement significant enough to justify the price?


BOTH!!

We have addressed, what we feel, are problem areas with the OEM piston with our piston design

THEN.. Add the patened head design and the increased airflow and you have a much "happier" engine!!

Very nice performance gain.. price is very low considering the gain in performance and the longer engine life..

860 is also working good!

seems pretty clear you are saying your piston kit fixes the piston related reliability issues of this poo motor........
here..how about post 40 of the same thread..pretty clear you say this fixes some of the internal problems of the poo 800.......

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rode last weekend with 3 drop in kits on 2012 Pros.

ALL 3 were set up VERY different in terms of clutching ,exhaust, even heads.. ALL 3 ran very well.. Absolutely no comparision to a good running stocker (yes, they were they in the group as well).

This kit continues to impress all that see it and ride it.. Also fixes some internal engine issues.. Very happy with it..


thats on 1 page of 1 thread..yet at least twice you clearly state this fixes internal piston related issues with a pro..and makes it reliable....


now for working on this motor for 7 yrs.BS........polaris hasnt had this motor on the snow but 2 full seasons...and everyone knows from post you made back in the dragon days that you refused to market stuff on it..do I need to go hunt those threads down too?
I understand why you are marketing to the poo guys..market share..I understand that..more power to you. but peeps are buyiing these kits with the understanding that it will make their sled totally reliable..and we both know it wont(or do I need to ask brad of PAR and Indy Dan to step in here and give us their opinion? I am sure both would... personally..if you are that sure your kit makes piston related reliability issues go away..put a written warranty out there and I will tell everyone to buy your kits..........

 

[AKSNOWRIDER]

I am going to add 1 more post from the above mentioned thread....post 97.......

The warranty is great but the downtime associated with a warranty repair whenthe failure is this severe is long and you usually end up missing out on the best riding of the season..

This issue can be addressed with a simple piston change and a boosted oiler.. then you get MORE performance and MORE reliability..

IMO, not having that comfortable feeling when you are riding yor sled and WAITING for a failure to occur so you can collect warranty is like knowing your truck is going to run out of gas but not filling it up before it does..


THIS PRETTY CLEARLY INFERS THAT IF SOME ONE INSTALLS YOUR KIT ..THEY DONT NEED A WARRANTY ANYMORE BECAUSE THEIR SLED WONT BLOW UP...
Just my .02

 

[RKT]

First Kelsey..no where does it say Kelsey or RKT..no where in this thread.........next....did you or did you not in post 17 on this thread
http://www.snowestonline.com/forum/showthread.php?t=299453



say this in answer to post 3 ?

Originally Posted by rmk727
So are we purchasing it for engine reliability or is the power enhancement significant enough to justify the price?


BOTH!!

We have addressed, what we feel, are problem areas with the OEM piston with our piston design

THEN.. Add the patened head design and the increased airflow and you have a much "happier" engine!!

Very nice performance gain.. price is very low considering the gain in performance and the longer engine life..

860 is also working good!

seems pretty clear you are saying your piston kit fixes the piston related reliability issues of this poo motor........
here..how about post 40 of the same thread..pretty clear you say this fixes some of the internal problems of the poo 800.......

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rode last weekend with 3 drop in kits on 2012 Pros.

ALL 3 were set up VERY different in terms of clutching ,exhaust, even heads.. ALL 3 ran very well.. Absolutely no comparision to a good running stocker (yes, they were they in the group as well).

This kit continues to impress all that see it and ride it.. Also fixes some internal engine issues.. Very happy with it..


thats on 1 page of 1 thread..yet at least twice you clearly state this fixes internal piston related issues with a pro..and makes it reliable....


now for working on this motor for 7 yrs.BS........polaris hasnt had this motor on the snow but 2 full seasons...and everyone knows from post you made back in the dragon days that you refused to market stuff on it..do I need to go hunt those threads down too?
I understand why you are marketing to the poo guys..market share..I understand that..more power to you. but peeps are buyiing these kits with the understanding that it will make their sled totally reliable..and we both know it wont(or do I need to ask brad of PAR and Indy Dan to step in here and give us their opinion? I am sure both would... personally..if you are that sure your kit makes piston related reliability issues go away..put a written warranty out there and I will tell everyone to buy your kits..........

Ya know.. with all due respect..I am really trying to be civil here.. But this is getting a little rediculous..
You are really looking for something that is just not there.. PLEASE look at the words ALL of them..

1st of all...
From Websters Dictionary:

Definition of ADDRESS VS FIX

Addresses :
transitive verb


2
a: to direct the efforts or attention of (oneself) <WILL address himself to the problem>

b: to deal with : treat <INTRIGUED <i to chance the by>address</I> important issues — I. L. Horowitz

vs.

FIX:
transitive verb
1
a: to make firm, stable, or stationary
b: to give a permanent or final form to: as (1): to change into a stable compound or available form <BACTERIA fix nitrogen>




3
a: to set or place definitely : establish


6
a: repair, mend <fix the clock>

b: restore, cure <THE fixed him up>
Synonyms: depose, deposit, dispose, emplace, place, lay, position, put, set, set up, situate, stick


So, no, I can not agree with your statement, since the word Addresses is not even a synonym for the word FIX.. This is my point.. You hear "Fix" when I am not saying "FIX" I am saying "Addresses" and yes, I will stand by the fact that my pistons do ADDRESS , what we feel, are issues with the OEM piston.. and it is clearly stated as such...


Then it appears that you see me stating that "we have been working on our piston design for 7 years" as being directed at the Polaris engine...
Umm... again, making that connection/assumption is something that should not be there..
We have been working on our unique piston design for 7 years.. this is true.. once you have the BASIS for a good piston design you apply that design criteria to ANY and ALL future pistons.. Which is what we have done.. Taken our R&D data and applied it to all engines.

If you discover a recipe that helps say..a Ski Doo engine, you can apply that recipe to the Cat and Polaris as well.. and that is what we have done.

Example: You find that one particular "over the counter" drug will address a specific ailment and you use it.. If you also determine that this same drug addresses another different ailment.. you use it on that one as well.. So, this drug is not just limited to one ailment..Same with internal engine parts..

How does one person know what another person's understanding is when buying any product? When customers phone me to discuss this it is clearly stated that there are other issues associated with this engine and that we are only addressing on area with the pistons.. Maybe somebody will "chime" in with a confirmation of this... Again, this is made very clear with every phone call AND the website... this should NOT be open to interpretation...

I will POLITELY ask again,,,, would you mind telling where you get your information as to my testing procedures and history and how many kits I have in the public domain? I really am asking in the nicest way possible..

Look, it is clear you have a problem with me and my company.. That is your choice, it happens and while am I never happy about such a thing.. I am OK with it..
It is part of this business and when you have been in this business for as long as I have (one of the oldest shops in the country) one realizes that this can not be avoided.. but this witch hunt is simply becoming old and tiresome..
ALL I ask is that you read the word for what they are... not what you wish them to be..
I am going to try my best to bow out of this thread.. Please just keep it real...

 

[RKT]

I am going to add 1 more post from the above mentioned thread....post 97.......

The warranty is great but the downtime associated with a warranty repair whenthe failure is this severe is long and you usually end up missing out on the best riding of the season..

This issue can be addressed with a simple piston change and a boosted oiler.. then you get MORE performance and MORE reliability..

IMO, not having that comfortable feeling when you are riding yor sled and WAITING for a failure to occur so you can collect warranty is like knowing your truck is going to run out of gas but not filling it up before it does..


THIS PRETTY CLEARLY INFERS THAT IF SOME ONE INSTALLS YOUR KIT ..THEY DONT NEED A WARRANTY ANYMORE BECAUSE THEIR SLED WONT BLOW UP...
Just my .02

YUP, I can see that it was poor wording on my part.. I will address the wording.. Thanks for the notice.. check it again for the FIX

Ya know.. I would guess that a very large majority of newer snowmobile owners are intelligent adults capable of making their own decisions on any and all purchases in their life...

I guess I do not see the need for a "policing" of all threads (but you seem to direct most all of your attention to my threads) and telling them how a thread should be read and what THEIR understanding of how to interpret the words that they read.

ANY and all people who can afford a $12,000 sled are capable of making rational and INFORMED decisions.. They are also capable of phone conversation and can call ANY supplier with their subject matter expert to discuss ANY products with ANY vendor..

Having the same 2 or 3 people entering most all RK Tek related threads and disecting them in an effort to discourge is simply unfair to RK Tek and to the people.. Really.. this needs to stop.. The select few have made it very clear your feelings.. I think it has run its course...

 

[AKSNOWRIDER]

Kelsey...honestly..I have nothing against you or your company....but in order to sell your kits..YOU.. have infered that if people install your kit in their motor it will be reliable..I am sure in your opinion your kit will make a sled live longer..great..but thats not what the average joe sees in your post..what he sees is if I put this kit into my motor..it wont blow up ....that is what I have issue with............As for how much testing..how many kits you have running..I have no clue..I do have first hand knowledge of one set of your pistons...been told of others....really wont matter till the majority of those kits go far longer then any stocker has gone(say 5000+ miles)to infer that they are adding reliability..but again..thats my opinion on what constitutes adding reliability...

And Kelsey..you are right..they are grown ups...I will walk away..so be it...good luck with your kits...

 

[RKT]

Kelsey...honestly..I have nothing against you or your company....but in order to sell your kits..YOU.. have infered that if people install your kit in their motor it will be reliable..I am sure in your opinion your kit will make a sled live longer..great..but thats not what the average joe sees in your post..what he sees is if I put this kit into my motor..it wont blow up ....that is what I have issue with............As for how much testing..how many kits you have running..I have no clue..I do have first hand knowledge of one set of your pistons...been told of others....really wont matter till the majority of those kits go far longer then any stocker has gone(say 5000+ miles)to infer that they are adding reliability..but again..thats my opinion on what constitutes adding reliability...

AK, HOPEFULLY, this is where this ends... But, I think, that you do have an issue with my kit, otherwise you would not be in almost EVERY Polaris related RK tek thread trying to discourage... This, IMO, hints of a "problem" with the person and/or company...

You are found in most all Polaris threads and offer full support for "other" shops products, yet, by your own admission you have not ran those products and by your own admission you have not ran my products,,

YET, my products get negative recommendations and the "others" get positive recommendations from you..

So, How can it be that you can be so opinionated with, by your own admission, zero experience with any of them??

So, Yes, I find it hard to believe that you do not have any personal issue.. or are not on a mission to sway.

Again, MY opinion... Not sure how others feel because I do not possess that ability.

Sorry Dude... It just seems to be the case....If I am wrong, I apologize

Which brings me to the last point..

"Average Joe" what is an Average Joe? again.. I never under estimate the intelligence of any person and surely not soley because they may or may not have ever rebult an engine in their life..

People can make informed decisions based on FACTS and can call anybody anytime..,
Presenting facts is never a problem.. but, claiming, as you do, to have an understanding of how OTHERS interpret my posts or any other post is something I have a problem with.. How can you claim to KNOW how others are interpreting what they read? This may be the problem...

by AKSNOWRIDER I have to agree with Dave, kelsey makes claims to fixing the issues with his kit..yet, his stuff has very very few actual in the feild test/time vs at least one other "kit" which has many many years/ users out there..does his stuff work? not sure but am pretty certain that there isnt near enough test data to come on here saying its the cure

Come on.. it is time for this to stop..

You state above that you have no idea how many kits or what testing I have done.. Yet you contradict (see quote above) yourself and state that I have very very few kits in the field and not enough test data .. How can this be??? Again, this sure seems like somebody who does have a personal vendetta.. Just my opinion.

I think that if we all just stick to facts and not conjecture or inference we will all be better off.. It really is time to put this to rest...

 

[friscospices.com]

I guess im sorry i started this thread now. Sorry Kelsey next time we ride Paris together i'll bring the beer for the parking lot after the ride. I will have my own thread with you piston kit and head on my 2011 pro with my 2013 silber kit, I am confident it will rock. As for the rest of this thread its failing fast. To all that had positive input thank you, as for the rest of you who can't lay off start your own thread if you have a problem.

 

[RKT]

I guess im sorry i started this thread now. Sorry Kelsey next time we ride Paris together i'll bring the beer for the parking lot after the ride. I will have my own thread with you piston kit and head on my 2011 pro with my 2013 silber kit, I am confident it will rock. As for the rest of this thread its failing fast. To all that had positive input thank you, as for the rest of you who can't lay off start your own thread if you have a problem.

Hey, it is all Good.. I look forward to that beer meeting.

To be 100% honest we have not had 1 single failure with our drop in kit , I am sure at some point we will, hopefully, you are not that person... We have several that are runnig it in a turbo application and having some really good success.. I hope this trend continues..

I know you meant well with this thread and I applaud you for trying..
I suspect it will not end here and there will be more posts with some negativity attached ...very unfortunate..

I HOPE that most can see them for what they really are and get past it...

LET'S RIDE!!!

 

[Scott]

Well this WAS a good clean civil discourse.

 

[Scott]

Interesting that you'd say this.

I've seen MANY, and I mean MANY threads where a customer's problem has been turned into a PR advantage by a vendor by DOING THE RIGHT THING... and by doing that, and having that thread out in the open they have the chance to show that they care about what they do & that they're a reputable company.


In Jbusch's case they could EASILY have come into the thread & made it right, but instead they had the thread pulled. I'm actually the one who recommended that he use RSI for the things he bought, and had recommended them many times before, but because of the way they dealt with that situation, I'll never tell anyone to use them again. Doesn't mean I'll badmouth them, but I won't specifically recommend them.

It's ALL in how you respond. I see the same thing over & over on Jeep forums where vendors have a very strong presence compared to here, and OFTEN have to deal with people claiming something caused an issue that it really didn't, but because they deal with the situation well, they're shown in a light that they simply couldn't be for not being on the forum to help.

If you're a vendor that can't handle criticism, you shouldn't be on a forum, BUT if you're a vendor that understands how to deal with a situation, it can be a great thing for you in the end, and I've seen that on here many times as well.

ANYTHING is an opportunity to do the right thing and make a huge PR score. For sure.




BTW, what was the jbusch deal? On SW? Which thread title was that one?

 

[backcountryislife]

Don't remember the title, he bought some stuff, some didn't show, some had an issue... don't remember the deal, but I know J well, and he's a WAY low key easy going guy, and he tried resolving it and they treated him poorly, then when he tried getting some help online, they got the thread pulled. I always thought they were good guys, but the way they treated him was uncalled for, I was really surprised.

It was in the cat section.

Sent from my A200 using Tapatalk 2

 

[AkHockey10]

It needs to snow..