Was there a consensus on using automotive synthetics in 4s sleds since there is no wet clutch issue?
Verdict on Energy Conserving Oil?
- Thread starter FriscoProx
- Start date
If I remember correctly, my 4s Phazer factory service manual specifically states not to use "energy conserving" tagged oil. Don't know about just a straight up synthetic. I would think it would be ok so long as the oil meets the service rating for your engine. I tend to lean in the direction of the manufacturers oil as they have to live with the performance of the oil while the sled is under break-in and warranty periods. I would like to hear others ideas on OEM oils... which are most likely re-packed commercial oils anyway...
Oil threads are about as common as gas price increases these days! Over on Thumpertalk.com there is a very good explanation of oils and the use of auto oils in motorcycles, with wet clutches. What can be transferred over to snowmobiles is the oils ability to stay in grade (sheer resistance). Since the oil in sleds is pretty much engine only, no transmission or gears to grind away at the oil, and no clutch to contaminate, I think the oil will survive even better. Test results showed that the Mobile 1 and Amsoil oils way outperformed the rest in sheer resistance. This means that when you put a 0w-30 oil in, how long does it stay 0w-30 before it gets beat up and drops to 0w-25 or 20.... On the other side, Yamalube did not fair well at all with respect to sheer resistance. Does that mean it's a bad oil? Nope, just means that you will have to be more diligent in keeping fresh oil in it so you don't run it out of grade.
Overall, this test proved to me the value in Amsoil synthetics. I have that in my Nytro now (0W-40). I guess the point I'm trying to make is that the manufacturer oil may not be THE oil to have. For a little more money (maybe even a little less sometimes) you can have a better performing oil.
I'm still curious of the "energy conserving" oil in sleds, too.....with no wet clutch, it should be fine? right?
There are many full synthetics that are not energy conserving. check the API donut on the bottle.
Thanks for the replies... good info.
Here's what the Yamaha Phazer service manual says in a "CAUTION" box on oil:
* "Use only four stroke engine oil" (durrrr... okee-dokee!)
* "Engine oil also lubricates the starter clutch. In order to prevent clutch slippage, do not mix any chemical additives with the oil or use oils of a higher grade than "CD". In addition, do not use oils labeled "ENERGY CONSERVING II" or higher."
Butta: How many miles can you run the Amzoil? Not that I would run it more than one season anyway... but a 3 hour oil and filter change once a year is enough! Yamaha suggests changing the oil @ 2,500 mile intervals or 200 hours, oil filter @ 12,000 miles. There is just something wrong with dumping and replacing the oil without the filter... old habits I guess!
Here's what the Yamaha Phazer service manual says in a "CAUTION" box on oil:
* "Use only four stroke engine oil" (durrrr... okee-dokee!)
* "Engine oil also lubricates the starter clutch. In order to prevent clutch slippage, do not mix any chemical additives with the oil or use oils of a higher grade than "CD". In addition, do not use oils labeled "ENERGY CONSERVING II" or higher."
Butta: How many miles can you run the Amzoil? Not that I would run it more than one season anyway... but a 3 hour oil and filter change once a year is enough! Yamaha suggests changing the oil @ 2,500 mile intervals or 200 hours, oil filter @ 12,000 miles. There is just something wrong with dumping and replacing the oil without the filter... old habits I guess!
I believe the reason for this is the fact that there is very little dust and dirt particles that get into the engine from the air intake. Due to this fact there should not be much that the oil filter needs to trap. I remember on older snowmobiles, actually most of the two stokes don't even have a real air filter. The air is much cleaner than say riding a sportbike, or a dirt bike.
This is also why you see severe service recommendations for vehicles in dusty/dirty climates with oil change intervals half of what is normally recommended.
Also, the oil is replaced due to braking down during operation and time of use, not due to dirt and other contaminants, so only a change of the fluid is required.
That is my thoughts on the subject.
Yeah, that makes sense. I'm thinking maybe changing the oil and a filter at the end of the season would be the way to go? I've been told that traces of fuel and/or hydrocarbons in the oil is no bueno for the aluminum engine cases over time. On second thought the oil filter is so small that the quantity of oil it holds is maybe insignificant...
hehehe... yep, in the olden days... no intake filters on the Tillotson carb! Just a nice round gasoline soaking on the belly of your snowmobile suit from the thing spitting back. ... I suppose I just carbon dated myself.
even the revs don't have much of a filter, not compared to a good foam or paper element anyways. My zr580efi didn't have one, nor my 80 eltigre. I think it is more important for the 4strokes due to tighter tolerances and the valvetrain parts.
After I get done changing the filter and oil from breakin, I will only be changing oil and filter at the beginning of every season.
Looking at the this for oil
amsoil
or use Mobile One. My dirt bike really like the mobile one.
After I get done changing the filter and oil from breakin, I will only be changing oil and filter at the beginning of every season.
Looking at the this for oil
amsoil
or use Mobile One. My dirt bike really like the mobile one.
That's the oil I'm going to use, and my Yamaha dealer carries it for $8.49 a quart......pretty reasonable for that quality of oil I think!!!
As for the oil change intervals, I will change mine after the last ride of the season (hoping to put 1,500 miles or so each season). I intend to change the filter with it, every time, because hey, it's only $17 and it assures my engine will receive all the protection it needs.
I choose the end of the season, because I don't want that used oil sitting in the motor over the summer, any contaminants pooling where they shouldn't, and I have heard (no proof yet) that through the combustion process there is an acidic property developed in the oil.....again, no proof and I really can't say where this would occur since the rings should prevent any oil in the combustion chamber, but if I all do is alter the schedule of the oil change to compensate, that's easy enough for me. Plus, it just makes sense to have fresh oil for storage.
Since the starter system uses a clutch for the engagement, we have found where the energy conserving oil will not suffice in these sleds. Good to know!
Does oil loose anything by letting it sit in the engine?
I guess I was thinking that in auto's they recommend 3k miles or 3 months, I guess that is with continual usage? So if you didn't drive nor start the machine for the summer the oil should be just as good as the last time you started it.
You are right, it does sound better to change it at the end of the year. Less to do in the fall too.
I guess I was thinking that in auto's they recommend 3k miles or 3 months, I guess that is with continual usage? So if you didn't drive nor start the machine for the summer the oil should be just as good as the last time you started it.
You are right, it does sound better to change it at the end of the year. Less to do in the fall too.
The Amsoil looks great... except for one small detail, and that is it's rating is a "CF" and Yamaha (see my service manual quote above) specifies nothing over a "CD" rating.
I'm curious what the Yamaha dealer that stocks the Amsoil would have to say or Amsoil themselves.
Poking around trying to find the differences between "CD" and "CF" and all I can find is that "CF" replaced "CD" in 1994. Furthermore, the "C_" ratings are for diesel engines where "S_" ratings on the API donut are for gas engines. E-gads. Who started this thread?
I'm only guessing that the sulphur content levels are different in the "C_" rated oils. We need an oil expert!
Here is a link to API site: http://www.api.org/certifications/engineoil/categories/
CF - Current. Introduced in 1994. For off-road, indirect-
injected and other diesel engines including
those using fuel with over 0.5% weight sulfur.
CE - Obsolete. Can be used in place of CD oils.
Introduced in 1985. For high-speed, four-stroke,
naturally aspirated and turbocharged engines.
Can be used in place of CC and CD oils.
CD - Obsolete. Introduced in 1955. For certain naturally
aspirated and turbocharged engines.
I'm curious what the Yamaha dealer that stocks the Amsoil would have to say or Amsoil themselves.
Poking around trying to find the differences between "CD" and "CF" and all I can find is that "CF" replaced "CD" in 1994. Furthermore, the "C_" ratings are for diesel engines where "S_" ratings on the API donut are for gas engines. E-gads. Who started this thread?
I'm only guessing that the sulphur content levels are different in the "C_" rated oils. We need an oil expert!
Here is a link to API site: http://www.api.org/certifications/engineoil/categories/
CF - Current. Introduced in 1994. For off-road, indirect-
injected and other diesel engines including
those using fuel with over 0.5% weight sulfur.
CE - Obsolete. Can be used in place of CD oils.
Introduced in 1985. For high-speed, four-stroke,
naturally aspirated and turbocharged engines.
Can be used in place of CC and CD oils.
CD - Obsolete. Introduced in 1955. For certain naturally
aspirated and turbocharged engines.
if your runnin BOOST once a year won't cut it, every 500 miles.too much heat,imo.
I see your point on the manual from what you've typed about the Phazer, but I would have to say that slipping of the starter clutch would be noticeable and is not a catastrophic failure (can be cured by changing oil). I don't think the CF will have an effect on it, but time will tell.
Excerpt from Amsoil.com on this oil:
"Excellent For Transmissions
AMSOIL Formula 4-Stroke® PowerSports Oil is wet clutch compatible and contains no friction modifiers, making it ideal for both two- and four-stroke ATV transmissions. The friction modifier-free formulation is designed to prevent clutch slippage, delivering maximum torque and power to the wheels – a critical feature for towing or high-horsepower engines. AMSOIL AFF meets the frictional requirements of JASO MA/MA2. "
I have no concerns using this oil after reading that........
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Too much heat?? Where is the heat produced? Today's synthetics have incredible thermal resistance, along with sheer stability. Typically, it's the grinding of gears which is more detrimental to oils than heat in today's motors. I'm not a turbo guy, so I wonder just how much hotter does a turbo make the oil? Anyone have documented data?
I think I may just roll the dice and try the Amsoil in the Phazer. Like you say, if the starter clutch started slipping you surely notice it. Sounds like Amsoil has done their homework on the needs of a modern four stroke "recreational", if you will, engine.
On degradation of turbocharged engine oil... I know large diesel truck engines run the engine oil through the turbo bearing section... I'd assume the same for any other turbo as the bearing(s) would have to be lubricated somehow. I may be WAY off base on a snowmo turbo... but if you can imagine the heat that must be built up by the exhaust gases you'd really want to be on top of the oil your using. That's one reason I'd lean towards a supercharger If I was to "boost" the Phazer. Less heat, among other things.
On degradation of turbocharged engine oil... I know large diesel truck engines run the engine oil through the turbo bearing section... I'd assume the same for any other turbo as the bearing(s) would have to be lubricated somehow. I may be WAY off base on a snowmo turbo... but if you can imagine the heat that must be built up by the exhaust gases you'd really want to be on top of the oil your using. That's one reason I'd lean towards a supercharger If I was to "boost" the Phazer. Less heat, among other things.
My turbo seems to like the Amsoil, 0 problems so far.
