TURBO TALK – 2 STROKE LIGHTING COILS

[KMS]

TURBO TALK – 2 STROKE LIGHTING COILS



This is a discussion on "grey" areas in regards to turbocharging. I answer many of the same questions every day, one at a time on many confusing subjects that really are misunderstood. I want to help, so, we will open topics to provide accurate information and explain how and why stuff works. This topic is the beginning of a multi-week project to discover a cost effective, reliable and high output electrical solution for 2 stroke snowbikes.<O</O
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Over the spring and summer, we plan on exploring forced induction solutions for 2 stroke snowbikes (how cool is that!) Currently there are 4 different system platforms that will be explored and tested (2 turbo system and 2 supercharged constructs). To complete these projects we need something first…electrical power.<O</O
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To fuel these bikes, we will need fuel pressure. That means we need a fuel pump. We could go mechanical or electrical for this. For the time being we have chosen the “path of least resistance”, Electrical. To supply the pump, we will need a coil up to the challenge.<O</O
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For this project, we pulled in our resources that have helped us in the past that specialize in small size, high yield electrical power generation for the powersports industry. We picked the CR500 to start with (it seems to be the most challenging due to the lack of space and small flywheel). We reviewed some of the aftermarket lighting coils that are currently offered and found that they will not be suitable for the following reasons: low output levels and reliability. After taking a closer look at these products, we found a huge flaw. Cheap steel. It may look shinny, however internally the grade is very low.
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Why does that matter? It matters because the iron core is the base of the entire electromagnetic process. If the core is a low grade, the electrical field will not be strong and the output will be low. To compensate for this, many coil manufacturers will overwind the coil. This will stress and overheat the copper which leads to insulation breakdown and coil failure.
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So, for me the answer is simple. Use better steel. For this, I spoke with 2 separate engineers that are leaders in the electromotive industry. Both of them reviewed the current cores used. They were shocked by how low the grade was. A low grade steel will “absorb” a high percentage of the field generated. Like putting a metal fork in a microwave, the low grade core will heat up and the system will go south from there.<O</O
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What do we do? We make the real deal. A core is nothing more than a stack of thin layers of steel (Laminations). So to make a small run for prototyping, here are the steps:<O</O
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Step one: What material to use? The experts say M19 steel. It does cost more than the overseas stuff, however you only live once!<O</O
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Step two: How thick to make the laminations? Again with the experts, .014” will generate the highest output. Food for thought, the sample core had .040” thick laminations…possibly a choice for lower production costs?<O</O
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Step three: Get the stuff and cut it up! I took a CR500 lighting coil core, drew it in AutoCAD, and set the material for laser cutting and heat treating.
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Step four: Assemble the laminations into core stacks. The sample low grade core was .625” tall. Depending on the real estate available, we may go larger here…because size does matter. At .625” we will need about 45 laminations. For reference, the low grade sample only uses 15 laminations.
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We now send off the M19 laminations and the Low Grade core for winding and output comparison. They will be tested for output at various rpms and I will get back to you as soon as the results are in. Will this work? I have no idea, however may the best core win!
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PS. If there are any current lighting coil products on the market that you would like performance tested for the CR500, please let me know. We can toss these into the evaluation process and together we can get the "real deal" output numbers.</O

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Thanks for reading and questions are always appreciated.<O</O

 

[summitboy]

Honda made a factory external stator back in 2002. I believe it was made for the Australian CR500E. Very rare. Eline copied it and Baja Designs used it as there own. Its two coils of 100 watts. Its the only coil that works imo. They sell for upwards of 700-1200 bucks. Mine has worked excellent. I only use one coil of 100watts. Millar Racing has a stator plate that can adapt a CRF coil. It will be a cost effective way to get power. Eline quit making them because of cost and supply. From Italy i believe.

 

[M5-]

If you can come up with a cost effective actual working coil that will put out more than that lame a$$ 40 watts AC currently available count me in I'm all over that. This is the last piece of the puzzle for my CR500. This season I just ran LED lighting and charged a battery externally when needed but its a PITA. I have to believe there is a market for a decent lighting coil for the CR500.

How big of a fuel pump would the bike need? My old Rx1 turbo and my Nypex both had pretty decent sized pumps which pull a fair bit of current.

M5

 

[KMS]

M5. What lighting coil system are you currently using?

As far as the current draw for the fuel pump, we will need less than 50 watts. The fuel pressure will be relatively low and the pump will not need to work as hard. Thanks.

 

[M5-]

I don't currently (no pun intended) have a lighting coil. There have been so many rumors of new and better products becoming available that I have held off buying one. I looked at the Steahly but it is only 40 Watts AC which is like 28 Watts DC and likely only at full rpm. That would charge a battery at just around 2 amps if you were pinned which is better than nothing but.....

The Eline is the obvious choice for big power but they are impossible to find and IMO way overpriced at close to a G note $USD used and they are almost overkill on what they can put out at least in my case.

This season I ran a 5Ah battery and charged it at night which gives me a couple of hours with the LED lights. I also pack a LED headlamp good for another couple of hours. It's not an ideal solution but it works.

There is another option in the works apparently as well using an adapter plate and a stock Honda 450X stator which is a real stator in the 100+ Watt range.

I have to believe that between the dirt, snow and motard CR500s that are out there, there must be a market for a decent stator, a guy wouldn't be able to retire from it but hopefully you could make a few bucks and cover costs.

One way or another this summer I will address the stator issue, we are at the point in the season now where its light till 8 pm and there's no need for grip heat so no big hurry for this season but come next December I'll be wanting something.

Now if a guy had a turbo and needed an electric fuel pump that would be a different story. LOL


M5

 

[SEOINAGE]

About to rip my 500 apart and pick up a track before next season. Going to be rebuilding it, and this was one of the things on my list. A stator, grip warmers, light, had been looking into building a turbo, had looked into self lubricating ones, then read about others building a turbo on a cr500 that used a dedicated pump(more power), but I believe he had a battery that he just charged before he rode it, although it was a drag set up, and he didn't need to run long.
The other thing that would be nice is to be able to use the sx kit with a turbo.
What you do sounds like a lot of fun. I use autocad a lot at work, but most drawings are the boring ones unless I get free time I draw up my own things for fun.

 

[jskattum606]

So do you currently have any cr 500 turbos running? What is the preferred carburetor to run on a turbo bike? I like the looks of the lectrons adjustability but does the stock cab work fine? Thanks for sharing your knowledge!

 

[KMS]

We do not currently have a Turbo CR500 running. We need to take care of 2 things (electrical and carb) before the construct can happen. Soon we will be testing carb compatibility from a wide selection. Lectron is on the list for testing. It does offer some great tuning features, however it must pass three criteria: Sealing under boost pressure, needle and seat tolerance to fuel pressure, and shock under both of these conditions.

Without this magic trio, the riding and jetting would be not fun to say the least.

 

[egesledder]

If you have an e-line type high output stator, how much more work would it be to adapt an off-the-shelf efi system like the Vi-pec? It seems like it would be easier in the long run and a lot more versatile than a carb setup.

 

[M5-]

If you have an e-line type high output stator, how much more work would it be to adapt an off-the-shelf efi system like the Vi-pec? It seems like it would be easier in the long run and a lot more versatile than a carb setup.

I like where you are headed with this, LOL.

M5

 

[mr.max]

I'm not sure not having EFI is the end of the world. Look at the RX1's they craved turbo's and I personally think they were a lot less finicky than the Apex. No sputtering and once set up, no tuning. Guy's I rode with that had Apex's Were constantly fiddling with the Dobek box. Keep us updated on the Turbo Kit Please!!!!!! Also NOT a Lectron fan been there n hit the garbage can!

 

[kell8071]

I would be interested to see how the service Honda ignition compares, I think it's supposed to be around 130 watts output and converts to a digital ignition.

 

[wwillf01]

I'm not sure not having EFI is the end of the world. Look at the RX1's they craved turbo's and I personally think they were a lot less finicky than the Apex. No sputtering and once set up, no tuning. Guy's I rode with that had Apex's Were constantly fiddling with the Dobek box. Keep us updated on the Turbo Kit Please!!!!!! Also NOT a Lectron fan been there n hit the garbage can!

I think the dobek box has always been the issue with the new ecu tech I think that is the past... As far as the Lectron the ones that have been released the last we years or so have using new tech to cut the rods with a lot more precision.. Which in turn has made a much better product... With that said its a pain to always have to remove the top of the carb to adjust the low end of the rpms... The advantage of Lectron is the owner will custom make a carb for what ever application you need.... He is pretty open to new projects


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[wwillf01]

I would be interested to see how the service Honda ignition compares, I think it's supposed to be around 130 watts output and converts to a digital ignition.

They had crazy problems with them... They would burn up..


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[M5-]

They had crazy problems with them... They would burn up..


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I don't think SH are even making their ignition anymore because they all fried themselves.

As far as the Rx1 carb goes I was thinking of that as well, my Rx1 ran awesome for years turboed up and it was easy to tune. Another nice thing about the carb is it has both coolant heating and an electric heater built right into the carb. I'm just not sure how big they are I'm thinking 36mm, maybe they could be bored out also not sure if a 4T carb could be used on a smoker.

M5

 

[kell8071]

They had crazy problems with them... They would burn up

They are still listed as availabile and it sounds like they made a design revision. Mines the second version and seems to be working fine.

https://www.servicehonda.com/cr500-ignition-and-light-coil

If this kit would potentially use 40-50 watts then I like the idea of starting with 130 so I could still power the usual amenities.

 

[brycter]

We have used the sh set up and also the Baja design on our cr500 turbo builds. granted we have not done a ton of these builds but have had great luck with both setups.

we found that the stock carb worked just as good as the lectron. I have not tried the apt yet. lots of interest but nobody pulling the trigger yet.

turbo oiling has always been the crapper on any of the twostroke applications. because 2 stroke has no oil pressure. so you have to do a divorced oiling system or go with the aero. the aero runs hot with a little more backpressure.
also there is not a lot of small ball bearing turbo out there. the kpa 2252 is the closest one sofar. we have been working on getting some smaller ones made but money is always the key . stupid ROI. so don't forget to start looking for a system to oil your turbo. journal bearing turbo lots of oil pressure more amp draw bigger heavier pump. ball bearing is the best by far.

there is also a couple hidden tricks on any carb turbo. cr500 is a great bike.

 

[SEOINAGE]

We have used the sh set up and also the Baja design on our cr500 turbo builds. granted we have not done a ton of these builds but have had great luck with both setups.

we found that the stock carb worked just as good as the lectron. I have not tried the apt yet. lots of interest but nobody pulling the trigger yet.

turbo oiling has always been the crapper on any of the twostroke applications. because 2 stroke has no oil pressure. so you have to do a divorced oiling system or go with the aero. the aero runs hot with a little more backpressure.
also there is not a lot of small ball bearing turbo out there. the kpa 2252 is the closest one sofar. we have been working on getting some smaller ones made but money is always the key . stupid ROI. so don't forget to start looking for a system to oil your turbo. journal bearing turbo lots of oil pressure more amp draw bigger heavier pump. ball bearing is the best by far.

there is also a couple hidden tricks on any carb turbo. cr500 is a great bike.

What kind of power have you been able to get out of your designs? I'm rebuilding my 500, getting it ready for snow, but considering all my options before I commit to a track, specific course for the bike like aluminum frame, what it will do in the summer(dirt or sand and incorporate turbo ext swing arm etc).

One thing I think should be considered in a turbo kit is allowing it to be mounted behind the shock so it can be used in non snow applications, granted you have to move the tire back. I know most kits take into account the ts strut rod, and I saw boondocker made a sand machine that was a lot more modified than the standard snow turbo kit. Would think this would open the market up for the product.

 

[jskattum606]

What about a mechanical pump run off of the jack-shaft?
Ball bearing turbo with a sled oil pump gear driven
Wouldn't be very convenient for a front mount turbo though. Im also thinking turbo on the fat part of the pipe
sounds like a fun project!!