Truth???!! Summit County snowmobile club grooming Spring Creek

[PJ-Hunter]

If it is true, please don't!!!!!!! Grooming that trail will lead to more traffic and that means more "uneducated" riders in the area and that increases the amount of Wilderness encroachments. If that happens, Spring Creek could be closed off to snowmobiling forever. Wilderness is a very big deal in that area and losing it would hurt a lot of locals in the Grand and Summit Counties.

And before somebody gets butt hurt about the term "uneducated", I am meaning riders not familiar with the area and don't know where the boundary is. It's easy to blow past the boundary and not even know it.

There are some areas that are just meant to be harder to get to and that's one of them.

This isn't a plea based on selfishness or greed, it's purely based on the fact that if more people show up there, the chances increase for wilderness infractions and we need another area closed to OTS/OHV like we need another 4 years under Obama.

 

[tudizzle]

HUH?

Its a game of numbers....we need more not less sledders!

 

[PJ-Hunter]

HUH?

Its a game of numbers....we need more not less sledders!

That's not what I'm trying to say here. It's a pretty small but fun place to ride. If it starts seeing more traffic like Jones Pass has then it will create conflict between backcountry skiers/boarders and since the Wilderness Boundary is quite tricky to know (I don't even know it and I only ride there with someone who does know it) people will accidentally meander into the Wilderness. Accidental or not, it will just add fuel to the fire that is already burning pretty hot up there. The USFS is just looking for an excuse to shut it down. Don't give them one. The non-groomed trail is a perfect way to keep traffic in check.

Jones has had terrain nibbled away and nibbled away until it's just not worth it to ride there. Do you want that to happen on Spring Creek?

That's what I'm trying to say.

 

[milehighassassin]

The reverse argument is there as well. If more people start riding that area the FS will see that there is more demand from snowmobillers and more areas will remain open. If there is traffic and any trail that is there is getting torn up, that alone is enough for the FS to shut the area down. Maintained trail = area remains open.

 

[tudizzle]

seriously...if they want and have the rights to groom that area then they should. Don't avoid conflict then the other user groups win. Make it a positive experience and help educate the sledders on the boundaries/area rules that are in place.

 

[PJ-Hunter]

It's not really a trail per se. It's more like the only road up there that is not winter maintained (plowed) and is only used for access to get to the actual riding area. Spring Creek isn't for the casual family ride or plain jane trail ride. It's backcountry riding and that's it. From what I understand, they just want to groom it to make access in easier. I can see both points of view here, just worried.

 

[backcountryislife]

I can see both points of view here, just worried.

I can too... and I am as well.

This would destroy spring creek. Just another place not worth going to any more.

It's a small area, not a ton of terrain, not much trail either really, high avy danger with a NASTY runout, and muddy boundaries.

More people up there will get MORE areas closed, not less, because so many people will be wandering into the wilderness... and it's a very easy place to patrol, so they will get proof that we're "all" riding the wilderness rather quickly.

I disagree 100% with the idea that more traffic could help at all up there.

 

[Gmiller]

I can see it going bad quick, I've ridden with THOSE guys that go to areas that are groomed for ease of access. They don't know what the hell they are doing, where they are going and most of the time cross into areas that SHOULD not be crossed into. I've talked with guys back in some areas, none of which had a beacon, probe or shovel. I've sat there and told them, that area is off limits and two minutes later they are in that area, right past the signs. Not always 100% but those are the people that are "attracted" to groomed trail areas. Its like a free card to do what you want having a groomed trail to a backcountry area, people are not experienced, they bring all kinds of family and friends that have never ridden and its flat out dangerous. Look at Vail Pass, is it not a **** show up there most days, not saying that spring will end up the same but it sure won't make things better. Now that the greenies are taking over everything im sure this grooming thing is because there is no where else to go anymore. One can only hope that if it does go through and gets groomed it doesn't end up like vail pass.

 

[AndrettiDog]

I don't know that area but...

By grooming that area the club "adopts" the area. The UFS and Colorado State Parks now have an area that they will get assistance with in maintenance. It also improves the perception of winter recreation areas in Colorado. Now that club will receive funds for grooming. This will help the club grow through other club efforts. You might not like those concepts, but it does help our sport. The Hidden Gems group (Wilderness Workshop) would have had more luck taking Lower Piney had the Holy Cross Powder Hounds not maintained that area in grooming efforts. In fact they are still trying right as we speak.

The big problem with sled heads as that most of us exist as very small groups. I haven't even ridden with most of the people on this thread. What I'm getting at is that anything that groups snowmobilers and "unites" them in a cause of preserving the sport and the areas in which we ride is a good cause. We still don't have to ride together but at the least should join a club to increase the numbers. You don't have to go to meetings, club rides or anything for that matter. Heck, with our club you can turn off your email notices and never hear from us.

 

[MtnDoo]

I understand the desire to avoid conflict, visibility, but:

1st in use, 1st in right.
Use it or loose it.

Many of our areas which have been "managed" away are due to perceptions promulgated by Enviros that they are somehow entitled to them through their use.

The more areas we have to ride, the less impact and conflict follows.

Groom on, fellow riders!

Just my $00.025

MD.

 

[rwebb35]

I agree whole heartedly with pj-hunter and backcountryislife. IMO the more attention brought to an area the quicker the greenies take control. Oh, and what about tour companies? That will be next up there! Please leave the groomer out of Spring creek. Just another 24 year Summit Co. sledder.

 

[Kleiny]

Im on the no grooming bandwagon, Ive ridden up there a bunch and the area is not that big and some people get board quick and will ride in the wilderness and bring more attention to the area , and the Greenies already closed most of the areas in summit already and Im sure they are looking for more areas to close. Please don't groom it , The no grooming has even kept me away from that area now and then.

 

[cokingcat]

From what I understand, if clubs & groups (Nordic/4x4/ etc) don’t start grooming, maintaining and posting trail signs, FS are going to close more trails, which is a stepping stone to wilderness areas expanding. Example: look at all the new areas that are shutting down this summer in Summit County. FS seems to be open to giving groups/clubs a chance to prove themselves (let’s not get rangers and hidden gems groups mixed up). The truth is, FS doesn’t have the resources to manage all the areas, so it’s likely to be closed if they don’t get help. If they have help from the club posting signs, the area can stay open. If things go well, more of that area could open up, even across the county. So with all respect, Spring Creek could have been gone already if people weren’t getting involved and getting together to keep it open. Keeping it quiet means that we don’t care about the area. I am not sure why more snowmobilers in Colorado are not in clubs, like the rest of the country. Being in a club doesn’t hold you back in any way.

 

[Gmiller]

From what I understand, if clubs & groups (Nordic/4x4/ etc) don’t start grooming, maintaining and posting trail signs, FS are going to close more trails, which is a stepping stone to wilderness areas expanding. Example: look at all the new areas that are shutting down this summer in Summit County. FS seems to be open to giving groups/clubs a chance to prove themselves (let’s not get rangers and hidden gems groups mixed up). The truth is, FS doesn’t have the resources to manage all the areas, so it’s likely to be closed if they don’t get help. If they have help from the club posting signs, the area can stay open.

I wish this was the case, but look at the Tiger road areas, You can access at least two backcountry areas and HALF of the way to the area is groomed by Good Times. What trails did they have to maintain?? What signs did they have to post?? Was this area busy, yeah i'd say so, on the weekends the lot was packed. NOT once did i ever see a ranger up there or on the trails in four years, so why now all of a sudden do they not have the resources, they haven't been spending money up there.... I'd like to say the more the better but that doesn't seem to be working either. I agree that more sledders need to focus at least a yearly membership on a club so they have some funding to focus on keeping some riding open but at this point i see more of the heavily used areas being attacked first by both forest circus and hidden gems. There is NO DOUBT we all need to step up, leave comments, make calls, volunteer and support our local riding areas any way we can.

 

[powdersnobb]

As a member of the club I can inform you all a little more on whats going on. Rich is heading this thing up and is doing an excellent job of trying to keep our areas open. The forest service and Dillon ranger district are threatening to close the area down as it is. They are also trying to shut down Montezuma/tiger rd, as well as pens. gulch. They are putting things on hold and giving us the possibility of more areas opening back up if we can show that we are trying to be responsible. Signage is key in this movement. We (snowmobilers) need to get out and place signs (free from the Dillon ranger dist.) where there is no snowmobiling allowed. We need to inform folks that we will not have anywhere to ride if we can't be responsible. If we can start grooming ops and get better signage in spring creek this will go a long way to make them happy.

Now don't get me wrong. The whole thing sucks. We are quite responsible up in the spring creek area. I don't understand why the forest service has to be such a pita. It's that way though. So we must play the hand we are dealt or we wont have anywhere to ride. If you want details, contact HILLCLIMBER.

Also I might add for those of you who actually care and want some sort of say in this, join a club! We need the state parks etc. to see our numbers. Sitting there on your couch complaining on snowest is not going to solve anything.

Oh yeah, I may be one of the grooming volunteers. Maybe I'll squeeze out a couple sweet jumps back there. You never know.

 

[Gmiller]

1/10/2012
12:00:00 PM Special Use Permit approved for Grooming at Spring Creek!
The Dillon Ranger district is finalizing the permit process allowing us to begin grooming 15 miles of trail in the Spring Creek.

This is from the club i joined, if its going to happen, oh well as long as its not a mess. We defiantly need to get signs on this wilderness boundary or it WILL BE a mess. CSA im sure would help us on that.

 

[rwebb35]

Oh boy Pj-Hunter did you have any idea what you would be starting. Congratulations, some of you are catching on to the reverse phsycology the greenies are using on us. Common sense should tell you the less attention and riders (summer or winter) an area gets, the less attention it gets! If you do not believe that, then you have fallen for a trap. Do not fall for the trap! It is a fact there is a new trend in our country. These greenies are starting and running alot of the small local clubs. There objective? Fool you in to believing that our riding areas need more management. More management leads to more attention and more attention always leads to more closed routes than open ones. As I said previously; the less attention an area gets, the less attention it gets! Maybe this is to simple for alot of people to understand. Unfortunatly, even talking about our riding areas on this forum puts them at risk. If you do not believe the greenies are listening in then I will say again, you have fallen for a trap. Please save your comments to me. I do not care! Because, guess what greenies; I will be powder surfing and railing single track till the day I die. In areas that have never had attention brought to them and never will. C`mon guys and gals lets keep our hidden gems quiet. However, I do believe joining a club can be benificial. It just has to be the right ones, such as Blue Ribbon Coalition and the National Rifle Association. Most importantly let`s vote Obama out and keep playing on your land. Keep in mind people this is my opinion. It is not worth squat! Remember, early to bed early to rise powder surf like hell and make up lies.

 

[tudizzle]

I heard the greenies are coming on forums and lurking for years...waiting to try and disrupt snowmobilers from getting organized. Then activating these sleeper cells


rumor is rwebb35 is one?


Keep in mind people this is my opinion. It is not worth squat! Remember, early to bed early to rise powder snort meth like hell and make up crazy alternative realities.

 

[cokingcat]

I wish this was the case, but look at the Tiger road areas, You can access at least two backcountry areas and HALF of the way to the area is groomed by Good Times. What trails did they have to maintain?? What signs did they have to post?? Was this area busy, yeah i'd say so, on the weekends the lot was packed. NOT once did i ever see a ranger up there or on the trails in four years, so why now all of a sudden do they not have the resources, they haven't been spending money up there.... I'd like to say the more the better but that doesn't seem to be working either. I agree that more sledders need to focus at least a yearly membership on a club so they have some funding to focus on keeping some riding open but at this point i see more of the heavily used areas being attacked first by both forest circus and hidden gems. There is NO DOUBT we all need to step up, leave comments, make calls, volunteer and support our local riding areas any way we can.

I agree, the rangers don't post signs, groom, plow or check stickers out there like a ton of places in Colorado. But I think there point is they still have a agenda for trail culverts, wildlife, clean up, forest fires, camp sights, search and rescue in some way, gates, and keeping the peace. I bet from there point they have overhead on many trails even if we don't see them out there because how much area they have. I agree the more numbers out here doesn't mean they will leave it open. It's about more organized support.

Think about how winter trail heads that are more likely to stay open in Colorado.

A club donates money and helps out at a trail head
CSA and they donate money to a club or non-profit
Your sled sticker money
A non profit group
Nordic (which doesn't help us)
Sled rentals *(permit that pays rangers back to make money on there land)
Sled rental business that also grooms *
Dog sled rides * (which doesn't help us either)
-All of which shows ownership to the rangers that you want the land and are willing to work for it.

I feel we need more groomed trails and more parking lots because as more trail heads gets shut down, the more were going to all show up at the same places. And we all know that parking is already tight and the trails are getting more use (more bumps) and were going to be forced to ride more trails with rental operations.

Just getting your sled sticker isn't enough.
Joining CSA is a good start.
Getting involved in a club is the way to go.
I am not sure any everyone knows what benefits there are to being in a club

 

[psychoneurosis]

My understanding is the grooming of these areas could be key in getting other areas reopened on the White River- these are areas on the travel plan map where trails are permitted but there are just no trails. Are there risks...... absolutely. Can these risks be dealt with.......absolutely!

WRF FS has really gotten involved with winter use issues after the travel plan appeal and they really seem interested in addressing issues and keeping access open for sledders. Working through the issues is certainly better than loosing the riding area, which is exactly what was proposed in the final decision

The High country club has a lot of time and effort in this project and I really hope it works. Already have private individuals volunteering equipment and time to assist with grooming until permanent funding can be arranged. 6 months ago we were concerned about closures and now we are concerned we can't get funding set up for grooming fast enough. Big change

State Parks is willing to provide signs etc for these areas to clearly mark Wilderness boundaries out of the OHV/sled reg funds. Again not personally familiar with this area but if it is anything I ride Wilderness boundary posting often leaves a lot to be desired. The overwhelming percentage of users will obey the boundary- they just need to know it is there