Troubleshooting my edge...

[Damm315er]

...and frustrated as %&*#$$#%&!!

I was out riding my cruiser ('05 edge 800 touring), put on about 35 miles and the engine started making a funny noise. I stopped to figure out what it was, but couldn't find anything, so I swapped in another set of plugs and turned around to head for home.

When I got home, I snapped this:

(view full size here) http://s473.photobucket.com/albums/rr97/uglykid555/sled tech/?action=view&current=01-10-10010.jpg

The plugs on the right have about 150 miles, the plugs on the left have 10 miles.

I cleaned the carbs,
checked seals and boots for air leaks with starting fluid, (no leaks)
did a compression test, (135 per hole)
checked the reeds, (they're fine)
changed the fuel, (fresh 93 non-methanol to replace the old 93 non-methanol)
verified the oil pump and fuel pump were both working ok,
checked the TPS, (10k to 50k ohms progressive both sides)
verified no coolant leaks,
verified no exhaust leaks,
pulled the exhaust and looked at the pistons (which were perfect, still shiny, and had a slight coating of oil) and the piston tops (which were black and showed no signs of damage)
then I cleaned the carbs again,
went through 3 more sets of plugs in the process,

Today, I put on about 4 miles, and here's the plugs afterward:

WTF? What am I overlooking?

 

[02Pro-xboy]

looks just a touch lean just my 2 cents

 

[winter brew]

Funny noise???? I think a little more info is needed. did it die? lose power? run differently? Any description of the noise besides funny? how do you know it's from the engine?

 

[E-Zmoke 4:20]

Looks lean to me

Were you riding at high or low elevation? I'd toss in some bigger jets regardless of the fact. Could your wierd noise be your DET system kicking in as your getting real close to burning down your engine??

 

[whoisthatguy]

Sometimes when engines don't sound right, don't accelerate right and don't have the power, you are in the early stages of losing a crank bearing. The polaris crankcases have a built in defect for the clutch side crank bearing in that there is no oil drip hole above the bearing that collects cylinder scrape oil and allows it to drip onto the single most important bearing on the sled. Broken front rubber engine mounts, which happen more often than they should, can cause an early crank bearing failure. The torque stop sometimes gets beatup when you lost a front engine mount. The cylinder compression looks low and you need new rings. Slightly less than 150 psi is your target compression with new rings. New rings will put wings on your sled.

 

[Damm315er]

Elevation is < 1000'.

The jets are already rich, a look at the first pic can show you that.

There was no lack of power, except that after an extended period of time making this noise it seemed to surge/drag/surge/drag. At that point either on or off the flipper and it went way.

Well, the funny noise.. Trying to describe a noise to someone who hasn't heard it, is like trying to describe a color to someone who has never seen it.

It only occurs between 5k and 6k RPM. The closest sound I could compare it to, was if there was a piece of the belt wrapped around the clutch, and flapping against something at engine speed. Except that I looked several times, and never found this mysterious belt fragment, or any of the damage it would be causing, and it is not coming from the clutch area it's coming from the center of under the hood.

It will not make this noise on the lift, only under load.

Now, one thing I did not mention, is that this noise has been occurring randomly since I got the sled, last season. It would happen, and I'd slow down to check it out, and it would go away. Then not happen again that ride, or maybe several more, then it would happen again. I never found an explanation for it, and always kept a close eye on everything to figure out wtf it was.

As far as DET, who knows? The DET light never came on, and neither did the TEMP light. (and as far as I know, all the lights work)

 

[devilrmk]

You sure its not a driveshaft bearing? They are prone to failure

 

[Damm315er]

You sure its not a driveshaft bearing? They are prone to failure

Have you ever seen a driveshaft bearing make a motor go lean? No, the noise is coming from the vicinity of the motor, not underneath.

I've also checked the jackshaft and chaincase.

 

[dexter]

Elevation is < 1000'.

The jets are already rich, a look at the first pic can show you that.

There was no lack of power, except that after an extended period of time making this noise it seemed to surge/drag/surge/drag. At that point either on or off the flipper and it went way.

Well, the funny noise.. Trying to describe a noise to someone who hasn't heard it, is like trying to describe a color to someone who has never seen it.

It only occurs between 5k and 6k RPM. The closest sound I could compare it to, was if there was a piece of the belt wrapped around the clutch, and flapping against something at engine speed. Except that I looked several times, and never found this mysterious belt fragment, or any of the damage it would be causing, and it is not coming from the clutch area it's coming from the center of under the hood.

It will not make this noise on the lift, only under load.

Now, one thing I did not mention, is that this noise has been occurring randomly since I got the sled, last season. It would happen, and I'd slow down to check it out, and it would go away. Then not happen again that ride, or maybe several more, then it would happen again. I never found an explanation for it, and always kept a close eye on everything to figure out wtf it was.

As far as DET, who knows? The DET light never came on, and neither did the TEMP light. (and as far as I know, all the lights work)

lean for sure did you check piston wash I'm willing too bet theres none.

 

[whoisthatguy]

How about a partially shredded water pump belt? Or loosened water pump impellar lock nut that allows the impellar to scrape against the housing when the water pump axle lengthens enough due to thermal expansion? There are not a whole lot of moving parts to choose from, once you narrow it down to the center of the engine.

 

[winter brew]

This is going to sound wierd.....on my Edge I had this noise that drove me crazy. Noises travel/resonate and will fool the ear. I though it came from under the hood and all it was is the freakin' plastic recoil handle vibrating at only a certain RPM. Get that noise going and see if that's it.
Maybe pull the hood and ride it, look for something vibrating or at least try to narrow down where the noise is from.
Plugs look pretty normal and plenty rich to me.

 

[skis_n_skid]

Have you checked the primary clutch for any play in the movable sheave bushing or rollers. As a primary clutch starts getting worn and loose, it can make some weird noises at mid range rpm, and the noise resonates through the crank so it sounds like it's coming from the motor.

 

[Damm315er]

lean for sure did you check piston wash I'm willing too bet theres none.

Someone swiped my little light, so I couldn't look through the hole, and I dodn't think about it when the y-pipe was off... DOOH!!!!

How about a partially shredded water pump belt? Or loosened water pump impellar lock nut that allows the impellar to scrape against the housing when the water pump axle lengthens enough due to thermal expansion? There are not a whole lot of moving parts to choose from, once you narrow it down to the center of the engine.

Checked the pump belt, but not the impeller nut.. Agreed, not that many parts, that's why I'm so frustrated about the leaning out thing..

This is going to sound wierd.....on my Edge I had this noise that drove me crazy. Noises travel/resonate and will fool the ear. I though it came from under the hood and all it was is the freakin' plastic recoil handle vibrating at only a certain RPM. Get that noise going and see if that's it.
Maybe pull the hood and ride it, look for something vibrating or at least try to narrow down where the noise is from.
Plugs look pretty normal and plenty rich to me.

Well, if you only look at the porcelain on the plugs, they look near normal.

But if you look at the ground, it's getting hot all the way around to the weld. That's too hot, even if the porcelain is brown.

Something I've never seen before is the white on the center electrode.. You can see it in this pic.

I'll look into the handle thing too...

 

[Damm315er]

Have you checked the primary clutch for any play in the movable sheave bushing or rollers. As a primary clutch starts getting worn and loose, it can make some weird noises at mid range rpm, and the noise resonates through the crank so it sounds like it's coming from the motor.

Hummmm, interesting thought. I've had my hands all over the clutch, but not looking for anything loose/wearing... Added to the list, I'm headed out there in a few minutes.

Admittedly, it shouldn't have any issues, the darn thing only has 850 miles on it.

Thanks guys, keep the ideas coming.

Just out of curiosity, what kind of noise would an out of balance clutch make? This thing was traded in at 550 miles for some reason...

 

[skis_n_skid]

I didn't realize it had so low mileage. Not likely that the bushing or rollers would have any free play that soon unless it was faulty from the start. You need to have the spring out to check for play in the bushings or rollers.

I believe a clutch can be out of balance enough to damage the PTO bearing without making a noticeable vibration or noise (except for the bearing itself after damage is done). Does it still have the stock primary spring or did someone change it before you got it? If someone had it apart, it's possible that they put it back together out of register. With only 850 miles, the clutch shouldn't be too difficult to pull. If it's been taken apart before, it might be worth taking it apart and make sure it was put back together correctly (make sure the X's are in register), and make sure there's no play in the bushings and rollers.

Compression seems low for only 850 miles. Did you have the throttle wide open when you did the test?

 

[Damm315er]

I didn't realize it had so low mileage. Not likely that the bushing or rollers would have any free play that soon unless it was faulty from the start. You need to have the spring out to check for play in the bushings or rollers.

I believe a clutch can be out of balance enough to damage the PTO bearing without making a noticeable vibration or noise (except for the bearing itself after damage is done). Does it still have the stock primary spring or did someone change it before you got it? If someone had it apart, it's possible that they put it back together out of register. With only 850 miles, the clutch shouldn't be too difficult to pull. If it's been taken apart before, it might be worth taking it apart and make sure it was put back together correctly (make sure the X's are in register), and make sure there's no play in the bushings and rollers.

Compression seems low for only 850 miles. Did you have the throttle wide open when you did the test?

Yes, well, the compression tester I used was from harbor freight... If I could afford good chit, you think I'd be riding my touring sled when I'd rather be on a newer switchback?

I don't think anything on this sled has ever been off besides the airbox before I got it. The only reason I know that, is the carb boot clamps were loose.. Everything else ain't been moved in 5 years, it's pretty crusty. Even the fuel lines were original.

I only put 165 miles on it last year. The same day as I ran into the issue this season, last season I got hit by another sled and broke my hip.. Short season, would have been a thousand miles otherwise.