Does anybody experience trenching? I have a 16' MHLT on a 2010 KTM 530 EXC with the TSS.
Trenching
- Thread starter Lwood
- Start date
Of course brother...depends on snow conditions and base. I'm a big boy when its super deep I end up a line poacher.
couple of thoughts
If you have a kit with the white 200lb springs on the shocks, tighten them about as far as you can go on the adjuster, they are too weak for most 175 lb riders and up, but soft they allow the suspension to retract instead of the track digging. Most guys need a 240 lb shock spring to climb like a billy goat.
The tss shock promotes less traction more suspension..........everytime the TSS shock compresses the back of your track comes up out of the snow...................t r e n c h 'en.
So run it stiff or put the strut back in. You really need an adjustable strut, a 1/4" adjustment on the strut cam make a big difference in steering and traction.
If you have the floppy side to side rock'n front arm, lock it up, most riders find better traction / sidehilling when its locked in place. BE carefull tightening the little set screw on the locking collars, a little over tight and the ring splits if they haven't already.
If you have a kit with the white 200lb springs on the shocks, tighten them about as far as you can go on the adjuster, they are too weak for most 175 lb riders and up, but soft they allow the suspension to retract instead of the track digging. Most guys need a 240 lb shock spring to climb like a billy goat.
The tss shock promotes less traction more suspension..........everytime the TSS shock compresses the back of your track comes up out of the snow...................t r e n c h 'en.
So run it stiff or put the strut back in. You really need an adjustable strut, a 1/4" adjustment on the strut cam make a big difference in steering and traction.
If you have the floppy side to side rock'n front arm, lock it up, most riders find better traction / sidehilling when its locked in place. BE carefull tightening the little set screw on the locking collars, a little over tight and the ring splits if they haven't already.
Thanks for that info. The bike feels like it squats when I take off, then it pops up on the snow. The TSS is compressing. I am 6'4', 240 so... I run the TSS at 310ish #'s. I have the white springs turned all the way up like you said. Where do I get the 240# springs? TS site or aftermarket supplier?
Catsledman...I found the springs on the TS site. Ordered them
For that weight TSS at 400 will still move a lot.
I found the tss supper stiff and the skid on the softer side to be the best compromise unless you go solid rod.
I found the tss supper stiff and the skid on the softer side to be the best compromise unless you go solid rod.
setup is key
The biggest thing to trenching is the track preload balance.
Front shock stiff and rear soft makes the track's lowest point under the fender = dirtbike like handling.
Rear shock stiff and front soft makes the tracks lowest point further back like a hill climber with an extended swing arm. Climbs like a beast, but loses that playful dirtbike feel.
Springs does matter like these guys said, if you're a big guy then get your springs rates matched up. TSS should be 275 for 175lbs or so... 300 if you are closer to 200. I'd guess at 240lbs you want to go 350-375 at least. It should move a few mm at best when you mount the bike.
Check the rake on the bike also, head tube should be about 60 degrees. 58 would be a good climber, 62 fun and playful on the flats. Tune that with the ball join on the bottom of the TSS and fork height in the triple clamps. You can use a angle gauge, avalanche slope gauge or a framing square to get close on the measurements.
Good luck tuning and dialing it in
The biggest thing to trenching is the track preload balance.
Front shock stiff and rear soft makes the track's lowest point under the fender = dirtbike like handling.
Rear shock stiff and front soft makes the tracks lowest point further back like a hill climber with an extended swing arm. Climbs like a beast, but loses that playful dirtbike feel.
Springs does matter like these guys said, if you're a big guy then get your springs rates matched up. TSS should be 275 for 175lbs or so... 300 if you are closer to 200. I'd guess at 240lbs you want to go 350-375 at least. It should move a few mm at best when you mount the bike.
Check the rake on the bike also, head tube should be about 60 degrees. 58 would be a good climber, 62 fun and playful on the flats. Tune that with the ball join on the bottom of the TSS and fork height in the triple clamps. You can use a angle gauge, avalanche slope gauge or a framing square to get close on the measurements.
Good luck tuning and dialing it in
How are you making the shock compress when you’re in 2-3’ deep powder with basically no base within reach? Wouldn’t the powder just keep giving out and compressing before that hundred lb spring does?
So you’re saying with properly set suspension, it’s possible to have virtually no trenching?
So you’re saying with properly set suspension, it’s possible to have virtually no trenching?
58 would be a good climber, 62 fun and playful on the flats. Tune that with the ball join on the bottom of the TSS and fork height in the triple clamps. You can use a angle gauge, avalanche slope gauge or a framing square to get close on the measurements.
Good luck tuning and dialing it in
So you’re saying that a minuscule 2 degree angle in head rake is a night and day difference? Turns the bike from a single track beast to a high mark king? But then yet you say use a framing square to “get close”. GASP! What if he ends up at... dare I say, an unrideable 57.5 degrees!?!? If it makes that big of a difference and is so critical to the way the bike feels, isn’t it a “get it absolutely 100% accurate or dont do it all” type deals?
I don’t believe in all this hype of a degree making or breaking the bike. We’re far from pro and there’s so many variables that it can’t even really be tested properly IMO. Every snowfall is different and more or less dense which allows your ski to sink a 1/2” more than the day before. Would that not negate any head rake angles you made? How about rock stiff frozen fork oil for the first hour of riding vs the last hour? Anyone ever consider that? How about the Gatorade bottle on my front fender bag that gets drank throughout the day, adding less weight on the front end? How about body positioning and how far back on the seat you sit? Seems like those are all more significant than sliding your forks up or down a couple thousandths of an inch.
I just hope the op doesn’t think his trenching problems will completely go away if he changes his head angle. He will be awfully disappointed.
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the angle of the track under engine load will shift based on what shock is preloaded, just the tension of the engine drive on the track will create angle differences - so even in powder you'll notice a difference.
I'm just trying to share first hand experience here, as a ex pro level racer (snowcross and motocross) perhaps i'm anal compared to most of the guys on the forum... but my friends that just "ride" and aren't tuners rave after we worked through these similar changes on their bikes. I stand behind all of my post with real world feed back from several riders and bike setups.
I'm just trying to share first hand experience here, as a ex pro level racer (snowcross and motocross) perhaps i'm anal compared to most of the guys on the forum... but my friends that just "ride" and aren't tuners rave after we worked through these similar changes on their bikes. I stand behind all of my post with real world feed back from several riders and bike setups.
Try it, take 10 minutes and loosen up the front shock 4 turns and crank down the back - you will notice a difference without question.
I am definitely interested in setting the rear suspension and getting that a bit dialed but I won’t be messing with fractions of a degree in my head angle. I’m on a yeti btw. Does your trick still apply? I’ll give that a shot next time I’m home. I also race mid pack expert class, slow pro hare scrambles so know a thing or two about minor tuning and the differences the can, or won’t make. The rear shock thing is interesting though.
It will work on the yeti also, it seems to have even more effect on fixed strut setups as I've seen.
The rear shock is more important to change than the front I'd guess - I've always swung both at once... but my theory is based on the track is tensioned on the top from the drive shaft to the rear skid idler wheels, then mostly slack on the bottom when on the gas. So the stiff rear shock has more resistance to squatting under the load of the engine will keep the angle constant when on the gas.
The rear shock is more important to change than the front I'd guess - I've always swung both at once... but my theory is based on the track is tensioned on the top from the drive shaft to the rear skid idler wheels, then mostly slack on the bottom when on the gas. So the stiff rear shock has more resistance to squatting under the load of the engine will keep the angle constant when on the gas.
On the yeti you also have the 3 front arm mounting positions to play with. I tried the upper hole, but have gone back to the middle. When the snow gets hard the Yeti ski just fights back.. I am going to try an ARO ski to see how much that fights me in spring snow. Frozen trail + Yeti ski = no fun for me! As for trenching, softer front shock definetly helps. IMHO
Cory!!!! You are getting good info here. Yes, these minor adjustments do make a difference. The items you list definitely do play a factor but I've spent major time tuning my yeti with slight adjustments and can say that they can make a huge difference. Considering in a previous post you asked what the case vent line was I believe you have a fair amount to learn and should soak it up rather than calling it out. Seek wisdom grasshopper.
I’ve noticed those but havnt fiddled with them. But yeah, packed trails and crusty snow is torture on the ol forearms with my yeti ski. Definitely fighting it all day.
We all got a lot to learn. Me included. I got no problems admitting it and sometimes playing devils advocate to promote discussion and get some thought going. What does me being new to Ktm 4 strokes have to do with anything tough? Talk about irrelevant. Nice try though.
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Fair enough grasshopper. Let those forearms burn. Lol.
just so you know
springs for the TS kits up to 2017 but all Raw also
the springs you need are 1 7/8" inside diameter, front shock can use 8" length or 9" length and I use a 10" on the front that works fine.
on the back you have to keep the spring short to go between the rear scissor arm, 8" length for the back shock
I have bought mine off e bay, speedway is the brand, $32 free shipping, these springs are used most often on the smaller race car chassis.
My riding partner and I rarely go a week without experimenting with our snow bikes........looking for improved handling and performance.
6 years of buiding our own and a couple of TS kits in that mix, we have tried and discarded lots of ideas. Most of the other riders we ride with never touch their kits until something breaks. Some of those kits handle so bad on a road I wouldn't ride them.
Last week we rode over 80 miles of snowmobile trails in 7 days of vacation time. I wouldn't even leave the parking lot on a stock TS kit on any model bike and ride the same areas...........sickening.
You don't adjust and tune, then you live in a world of ignorance........and many do.
springs for the TS kits up to 2017 but all Raw also
the springs you need are 1 7/8" inside diameter, front shock can use 8" length or 9" length and I use a 10" on the front that works fine.
on the back you have to keep the spring short to go between the rear scissor arm, 8" length for the back shock
I have bought mine off e bay, speedway is the brand, $32 free shipping, these springs are used most often on the smaller race car chassis.
My riding partner and I rarely go a week without experimenting with our snow bikes........looking for improved handling and performance.
6 years of buiding our own and a couple of TS kits in that mix, we have tried and discarded lots of ideas. Most of the other riders we ride with never touch their kits until something breaks. Some of those kits handle so bad on a road I wouldn't ride them.
Last week we rode over 80 miles of snowmobile trails in 7 days of vacation time. I wouldn't even leave the parking lot on a stock TS kit on any model bike and ride the same areas...........sickening.
You don't adjust and tune, then you live in a world of ignorance........and many do.
Thats interesting. I'm pretty sure with the stock length springs the front shock coil binds before the shock has used its full stroke. Mine bent when it bottomed out and the coils bound with about 1.5" of the chrome shaft still sticking out. What spring rates front/rear are you finding works best for your riding weight?
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