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To all riders

For those of you riding western montana, planning to, and just general info to everyone, please read this.

Citations piling up for sleds off-limits
By MICHAEL JAMISON of the Missoulian


KALISPELL - Seventeen snowmobilers have been caught riding illegally in wilderness areas and other Flathead National Forest lands off-limits to the sleds, part of a flurry of out-of-bounds recreation over the past two weekends.

“We are disappointed that some snowmobile riders are being disrespectful and irresponsible by entering areas that are closed to snowmobile travel,” said Steve Brady, the forest's Swan Lake district ranger.

With nearly 800,000 acres open to the machines on the Flathead, Brady asked sledders to “respect the areas closed to motorized use.”
*
Those areas include all designated wilderness, such as the Bob Marshall, Great Bear and Mission Mountains wildernesses, as well as the Jewel Basin Hiking Area. Those forest lands have been closed to motorized use, including snowmobiles, for several decades, Brady said.

Still, eight snowmobilers were caught on Feb. 3 while riding in Sondreson Meadows, an area on the western boundary of Glacier National Park. U.S. Forest Service law enforcement officers said the group - locals from Columbia Falls and Kalispell - knew they were in a nonmotorized area.

Then, on Feb. 9, nine more snowmobilers were stopped while sledding in the Mission Mountains Wilderness. Again, all were locals - from West Glacier, Kalispell and Lakeside - and all were cited.

The riders could face fines ranging from $200 to as much as $5,000, with additional penalties at the discretion of the court.

According to Brady, free snowmobile-use maps are available at each Forest Service office, and can be found online at www.fs.fed.us/r1/flathead. Riders, he said, are responsible for knowing where they are and how the rules apply.

Last spring, Flathead forest officials announced they would increase patrols to crack down on sledders, and would recommend tougher penalties for those who ride illegally.

That announcement came after a string of violations, including one in which snowmobiler Ryan Roberts was buried under an avalanche for eight hours. Three days after Roberts' near-fatal incident, two more snowmobilers were ticketed in the same area.

“We are recommending stiff penalties on snowmobile travel violations, especially if extensive search-and-rescue efforts are needed and this puts others at risk,” forest official Jimmy DeHerrera said last spring. “This needs to stop.”

Weeks before DeHerrera made those comments, 10 people admitted to riding illegally in an area where two snowmobilers died in 1998 and 2000.

Others caught in the Mission Mountains - closed to machines since 1975 - attempted to flee before being chased down and cited.

This season, forest officials say they have continued monitoring snowmobile incursions, and are asking the public to help them police the millions of mountain acres in western Montana. Anyone with information about illegal riding on the Flathead forest can call (406) 758-5277 or (406) 387-3839.

For those riding legally, safety information about the current snowpack is available at www.glacieravalanche.org.
 
This is not good at all. Everyone needs to pay attention and wake up! We will loose everything if sledders keep up this BS. From what I gather from the article all of these riders knew where they were and knew they were riding illegally. Thats disgusting:mad:
I know that when they were in there they did not feel like they were harming anything and you aren't really. Fact is it's a closed area and you are harming all of us other sledders.
 
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Thanks for posting this. It's sad that we have people who think they are better than anyone else, are above the law, and can do what they want. :face-icon-small-dis

Maps are also available at J&L, I carry them in my pack and in my truck, and also send them out per email request from our local club website (link in sig line). Not that these sorts would ever want a map anyway. They know exactly what they are doing.
 
screw the fines they should just take their machines away. Bet they won't ride there again.

Too bad a few idiots could ruin it for the rest of us. These are just the excuses the greenies need to try and shut down other areas.
 
It wouldn't matter if they were riding there or not, the "open" areas are under attack and will be closed down soon enough. There is not enough letters written or money pooled together to fight. We consider it a victory when an area is cut in half and not completely closed. Victories are closed areas opened up to riding, everything else is a loss... :mad:

the FS needs to pull their heads out of the "green" money pile and acknowledge that sleds do absolutely no harm and that areas should remain open to winter travel. ATV's are a different story, and IMO should be banned from all forests... (flame on, its my opinion)
 
One question.
How are the boundries marked??
Is it clear or is it like colorado where they just put a sign up 4' off the ground every few miles.
There is no reason or rime to how they choose the boundry. They don't use natural boundries like rivers or roads or anything. They just say, well it's someplace over here. If that is the case, I would say it is as much the fault of the Forest service as it is the sledders. It is easy to stray into a wilderness area if the darn thing isn't marked.

They should at least put out a downloadable boundry that you can overlay on your GPS so you know when you are close.
 
One question.
How are the boundries marked??
Is it clear or is it like colorado where they just put a sign up 4' off the ground every few miles.
There is no reason or rime to how they choose the boundry. They don't use natural boundries like rivers or roads or anything. They just say, well it's someplace over here. If that is the case, I would say it is as much the fault of the Forest service as it is the sledders. It is easy to stray into a wilderness area if the darn thing isn't marked.

They should at least put out a downloadable boundry that you can overlay on your GPS so you know when you are close.


I think you are being too generous here! If you are a local, you KNOW where your riding areas and are not. If they were just closed in the last year or two, that would be a different story.

The problem is these dumb azzes don't feel the laws apply to them and they aren't going to get caught! Surprise! :mad:

I drove into an area last year at Rabbit Ears that was newly closed, and the signs were not that clear to me. I got out of it right away when someone else saw the sign. But at RE, there were huge changes from the year before. In this case, not so.
 
Yes, it does matter when someone is riding in a non-motorized area!!

I'm not sure who thinks it is a victory when riding areas are cut in half, but most folks I talk with don't. Losing any more land is not right. If the idiots who spend their time riding in areas they aren't supposed to be, actually wrote letters, made phone calls, showed up at land use meetings, joined the local club, joined the state club, joined BRC or SAWS (SAWS is FREE)....maybe things would be different. Nothing like showing up to a Land Use meeting, only to see maybe one or two other motorized users, and a BUNCH of enviro-zealots. :mad: Too many peeps are apathetic about this issue. The attitude of I'll ride there anyway is just wrong. Those sorts do NOTHING to help the cause.

As for no harm....well most don't cause harm. There are others though that do. When you hear someone bragging about having to cut down 8 trees because of where he's stuck, well that is damage....and that is just from one person and one incident. Add up all the rest that do it, and it can become an issue.

(And for any enviro-zealots reading this....you have enough problems in your own user group, why don't you try to address those problems rather than attacking the snowmobilers?!)
 
At least they're(forest circus) out there managing there closure. If you ride in a closure, expect to get in trouble. There will always be "rebels" out there that are not going to have unjustified restrictions imposed upon there life and play a political chess game that appears to not be winnable.

As far as trees go, its a fact that a few will get harmed by myself whether I am sledding or dragging a deer out. No difference between dead fall for campfires to saplings that get stepped on, as far as the "huggers" go. A lot of trees need to go for the sake of forest health, down to the point of all the roads that are growing in.

Riding in closed areas are bad.
20 yrs from now, will be the norm. imo
 
I solute any sledder that is standing up against the expanding ongoing closure of OUR land to snowmobiling.
I agree that it will be the norm in the future.

who cares if the area that they got caught in was off limits for decades?
they close down riding areas that have been used for decades every year!
nobody seems to care about the generations of riders that have been using it.
if they don't respect our areas why should we respect theirs?

and how are they "hurting other sledders" as some suggested?
is an out of bounce skier on a ski hill hurting the rest of the skiers on the mountain when he gets caught? of course not!

the sledders that do us harm as a community are the ones that except this *** rape with a smile. shame on you!:mad:
 
I agree with Phatty on this one, They're gonna take it all anyway, and they ought to be focusing on the Frickin ATV's runnin around during hunting season screwin stuff up It's pretty disqusting when your watchin about 200 head of Elk in a meadow that you Hiked your butt of to get to and then for some reason they all throw up they're heads and take off, then 5 min. later two guys show up on their "Quads" and never even know you are there or that there were elk for that matter, but hey they're "HUNTIN" sure!
 
Don't start to try to throw the attention at another motorized group for Gods sake, open your eyes people! Why not attack logging as they move the ground around more then all the atv's,jeep's,motorcycles,horses and bicycles combined.
What I understand is the areas that get closed to sledding are also closed to those other groups as well. In fact around here you can sled a much larger portion of area then you can ride an atv. It seemed that there main bases for closures was to protect the wildlife,watersheds and pollution. Actually it appears to me that they want to get rid of motors and the unnaturally noises that may interrupt there little expedition in the woods. The argument of wildlife and watersheds drug the horses and bicycles into the equation which hopefully will really mess with there great scheme of stripping people of there heritage.
 
Step away from the crack pipe!

I solute any sledder that is standing up against the expanding ongoing closure of OUR land to snowmobiling.
I agree that it will be the norm in the future.

who cares if the area that they got caught in was off limits for decades?
they close down riding areas that have been used for decades every year!
nobody seems to care about the generations of riders that have been using it.
if they don't respect our areas why should we respect theirs?

and how are they "hurting other sledders" as some suggested?
is an out of bounce skier on a ski hill hurting the rest of the skiers on the mountain when he gets caught? of course not!

the sledders that do us harm as a community are the ones that except this *** rape with a smile. shame on you!:mad:

I salute the riders that stand up, are politically active, and fight the closures legally. Take the time to read the initial post. You will see how the scofflaws are hurting other sledders. Their incursions have brought increased scrutiny on ALL the local sledders. It will ultimately lead to greater fines, more closures and crowded trailheads at the remaining "legal" areas. Additionally it gives us all bad press and ammo for the enviro-nazis. This rebel without a clue attitude will only serve to fan the flames and burn us all.
Failure to work with land managers will lead to more closures. More closures will lead to decreased rider numbers, decreased sales and possibly extremely limited production of any sleds at all.
I don't accept this current situation with a smile but I sure don't crap on others just because I don't agree with it.
 
Some people have no respect whatsoever

Have any of you trashing the Forest Service ever took time to meet and get to know some of the people? I'm not just talking in this thread, but others over in Land Use? I hear folks on here not want to be lumped into *young, disrespectful punks*, and any number of other things. Yet it's fine to rag on everyone within the FS as if they were all a bunch of lepers. :face-icon-small-con Yes, there are some bad ones in places they shouldn't be.....but there are one heck of a lot of good/nice ones. Have you ever had to do things in a job that maybe you didn't agree with, but it's your job? I'm pretty sure the answer to that for almost everyone is going to be yes.

It's those people who can't be bothered to get involved, of which a big portion are the ones who decide to take it upon themselves to ride where they aren't supposed to be, that are giving a black eye to this sport. Take a look at another thread in General here where some sledders not only were out marking the hills with high avy danger and against the wishes of whom they were riding with, but they were doing it in a closed area, and doing it above skiers who were already on the hill. :face-icon-small-fro So many peeps have plenty of time to b*tch and moan to anyone who will listen (except the proper channels), or at the bar (take a night or two off from the bar and donate some money to the cause), or even on this 4M.....yet do they ever buck up and attend any meetings, write letters, join ANY club and be active and keep up with land use issues?!! Look how many folks are members of this 4M, and how many are actually members of SAWS (again, it's FREE). I know locally who I see at meetings and who I don't.

I'm sorry, but the size of trees that get cut down, are NOT trees that you're going to drag a deer over (or even ride a sled over)......PERIOD! I'm not talking about saplings that are covered with snow anyway. Yes, there may be cases where there is no other option, but most of the time what I see is someone too lazy to move their sled. That's one person......times how many others that do the same thing, and how many times? I hear the same excuses over and over all time, and it gets old. People act like they are just one person doing something, so it's not going to hurt anything. Yet all of those people doing these things add up. This isn't about cutting trees out of roadways.

I know all about campfires and dead fall. I was raised in a timber family. For the past two summers (6 months at a time) I've been a camphost at a Forest Service campground that is on the North Fork of the Flathead River (I work for a Concessionaire, and not the FS). I put countless hours in cleaning the sides of the road, cleaning up a shooting range so we don't lose another one because of the lazy folks that can't be bothered to clean up after themselves, cleaning slash out of culverts that people cutting firewood seem to think is ok to throw there (or cleaning it up from the roadway). Not to mention what I have to clean up in the campground itself. I have an inhalor for asthma that I developed from 2003 fires here and the hazardous air we had for so long from these fires. I'm not ignorant about forest health. I know that timber management is a good thing, done by people who know what they are doing.

We've had a very supportive timber/lumber company and land owner here locally. They've been very active in land use issues, and in supporting off road motorized activities & allowing that on their land. Yet because of abuse by some, we are now in danger of losing an access point to snowmobiling. Here is a company trying to be a good neighbor and allow use, yet that isn't even respected.

This front page news, that hits so many newspapers, then gets passed along to those in the concrete cities who DO take time to write letters, make phones calls, and put their money forward to do what they THINK is right. We can barely get anything from locals when an area is threatened with closure. For the amount of people that are out riding, you'd think it'd be important enough for them to actually step up and make their voice count.

At least I can say that I back my words with actions.
 
I agree riding in closed areas does us no good, but, lets face it, it doesn't hurt our cause a lot either. Those who oppose us are already well established in their thinking and if there were zero incidents of riding in closed areas that would not change their minds or strategies one bit. In fact, they would just make up more lies and say it happened anyways, These people have no morals or scruples, just the firm belief that they are right in everything they do, an elitist attitude, and a propensity to blame all that is wrong in the world on someone else.
Perhaps one day in the not to distant future, we will all be labled as trespassers and criminals for wanting to enjoy the outdoors on a motorized vehicle. At some point either all off-road access will be outlawed or the vehicles themselves.
There is no way to reason with the people just as there is no way to reason
with terrorists, there is no compromise in either.
Perhaps when we get banned from an area we should act like the fanatics
and destroy that area so no one can use it......:devil:
j/k of course, but, it makes you wonder what it will take to stop these folks...
 
Well said CatWoman!

It gets very frustrating when we are out riding, we see someone stuck, stop help them, find out they are in our club area and don't have any interest in joining. We watch memberships drop, registered sled numbers go up. . . and they all want to sit on their butz while a few try to protect what we ALL enjoy.

I have made the plea about people joining clubs, it seems to fall on deaf ears. So, all you AZZHATS out there who can't spend 20 bucks to join the local club, next time, maybe I won't bother to help you get unstuck!
 
catwoman,
I understand what your intentions are but you also have to understand that a lot of people are not into joining clubs or giving money to groups as history has left a "black eye" on some of those types of matters. I joined saws and when needed more than happy to sign petitions and join any local rallies if possible.
I think the most productive thing would be that all these groups joined to form one large group. Then I would be more inclined to part with my funds. I have seen people invent jobs for themselves involving donation work, to only have them spend most funds supporting there desires.
I would certainly hope that any timber company would want to help with keeping any wilderness closures from happening. The Forest Circus is that, a circus. They seem to have more "tree huggers" than actual people who care about recreational use. They seem to listen and base decisions on junk science or even unfounded opinions. I myself have been fired for not doing something at work that I felt was wrong.

Some of these environment nazi's are highly educated and have a long term plan for stealing our land. There is a large picture involved and it directly relates to reclaiming roads and letting them in-fill. When the battle comes to a mere fact of trail only riding there won't even be those. Those enviro-nuts have got there hands in pretty much everything and don't doubt there even some members on this forum.

I agree that riding closed areas is not going to help but I also understand why some choose to do it.
 
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