Timbersled Suspension Setup

[mrquick68]

So, after two seasons on just stiffer springs in the fork, I finally spent the money on doing my 4CS fork right on my KTM. Sent it over to RG3 in CDL, ID. MUCH improved in the deep, better on the trail too, though its a touch stiff in the whoops. No biggie though, as I try to stay off trails. I can finally air the timbersled out a bit too and not hear metal sounds from the fork. YEAH!

The downside... the stiffer fork has really shown the downsides to stock suspension in the skid. I'm bottoming the skid out 20 times a ride. Earlier this year I had the front skid shock spring too tight, and it was a trenching disaster - backed it out, and were doing much better now in the deep - but I'm bottoming everywhere, my rubber bottom stops are destroyed... new ones on the way... But I'm struggling with the setup overall. Are the stock ST120 shocks junk? Do I need added more preload to my rear shock? I don't want to go back to trenching again either... My TSS is set at 260lbs or so, and feels great. But the skid just seems like its being out performed by the fork and TSS. I see dudes dropping 30ft cliffs on these things. If I did that my skid would snap in half!!!

Thoughts? There isn't much talk on "suspension" setup on these things or shock upgrades... Do I need real shocks in the skid, or just more preload on the springs?

thx!

 

[Adobe-Al]

I have some of the same problems with my 16 st. on 11 YZ450f. I swapped my fixed strut rod to an adjustable(KTM style) and played the length. I settled on 12 1/4, but still find that the backend at stock setting in deep snow seems to trench. I weight at 200 geared up. I have a 15 st. that has zero trenching issues compared to my 16 st. If I push down on the back of 15, it is way softer than the 16. The 16 very seldom bottoms and the 15 bottoms all the time. So I feel your pain. How much did you reduce pre-load on the skid to resolve your trenching problem? and how big boy are ya? Also how much is your TSS moving?

 

[chumbilly1]

Raptor triple rate springs or remote resi upgrade shocks would surely help.

 

[mrquick68]

I have some of the same problems with my 16 st. on 11 YZ450f. I swapped my fixed strut rod to an adjustable(KTM style) and played the length. I settled on 12 1/4, but still find that the backend at stock setting in deep snow seems to trench. I weight at 200 geared up. I have a 15 st. that has zero trenching issues compared to my 16 st. If I push down on the back of 15, it is way softer than the 16. The 16 very seldom bottoms and the 15 bottoms all the time. So I feel your pain. How much did you reduce pre-load on the skid to resolve your trenching problem? and how big boy are ya? Also how much is your TSS moving?

with my pack on and full gear, i'm sure I weigh north of 230. i'm about 212 buck nake'd. Currently trimming down though (cheaper than after market piggy backs!!!). I am a fairly aggressive rider and i'm not light, so i'm sure i'm asking a bit much from the stock suspension.

I found the same difference between the 15 and 16 kits. 16 kits rides higher, doesn't bottom as much - the 15 kits sags a bit in the rear and bottoms like crazy. I haven't noticed the 16 kit trenching more though?

I have about 3/4' of preload on the front and rear shock. Gonna spin my rear spring a little tighter this weekend and see how it goes.

 

[mrquick68]

Raptor triple rate springs or remote resi upgrade shocks would surely help.

I am willing to spend the money on the springs, but not piggy's. I'd rather just start a new build if i'm gonna spend that amount of money. Which I likely will next time.

 

[teal_210]

I had all of the same complaints as you on the 16 ST. Now having the 17 ST-LE (with forks done by Motion Sports also) I'm discovering that there isn't a one size fits all type of setting.

I absolutely love the LE on the trail with the shocks set to the hard position. But it sucks in the powder that way. So I end up changing settings several times a day. Soft for powder, hard for trails and jumps, medium for a mixture of stuff. I like the QS3-R shocks for this because it's really simple to do with only 3 settings and a big knob to turn.

The 3 setting on that shock are drastically different from each other. Kudos to Timbersled and Fox for giving us that! It's nice to have options.

 

[chumbilly1]

I am willing to spend the money on the springs, but not piggy's. I'd rather just start a new build if i'm gonna spend that amount of money. Which I likely will next time.

When I was on TS I spoke with raptor about the triple rates and they told me they have a heavy duty package as well. Might look into that. The springs are only 125$. Not going to do what a shock package will but I get the cost factor.

 

[mrquick68]

When I was on TS I spoke with raptor about the triple rates and they told me they have a heavy duty package as well. Might look into that. The springs are only 125$. Not going to do what a shock package will but I get the cost factor.

I talked to Raptor - and he said the springs would help a bit, but the issue is mostly the shock valving being too weak.

anybody know where I can get these stock fox shocks revalved?

 

[egesledder]

My buddy Luby over at Dirt Labs in Colorado has been looking in to revalving Timbersled shocks. He's hooked on the snow bike thing and is looking to expand his business.

They've been rebuilding/revalving Fox shocks for mountain bikes for years now and they're one of the largest volume rebuilders for Fox from what I understand.

He says to give him a shout and discuss.

https://www.dirtlabs.com/

 

[teal_210]

A stiffer revalve job will just make it into a trencher again. Unless they're able to keep it similar to stock initially and then ramp it up muck faster for more bottoming resistance. That's kind of what the triple rate springs do - but they don't do it enough.

 

[mrquick68]

A stiffer revalve job will just make it into a trencher again. Unless they're able to keep it similar to stock initially and then ramp it up muck faster for more bottoming resistance. That's kind of what the triple rate springs do - but they don't do it enough.

exactly. you need initial softness so it pops up on the snow.

I think the correct fix overall is geometry in the suspension that is progressive, like linkage in a dirt bike. Have Fox float type shocks worked too? They are very progressive... but perhaps too stiff initially.

 

[egesledder]

Light low speed and stiff high speed valving is a thing that you can do with the right valve stacks...

 

[teal_210]

exactly. you need initial softness so it pops up on the snow.

I think the correct fix overall is geometry in the suspension that is progressive, like linkage in a dirt bike. Have Fox float type shocks worked too? They are very progressive... but perhaps too stiff initially.

I can't find anything good to say about floats, or the float 3's. The Float Evols are better but I'd still choose a good coil over.

 

[M5-]

I can't find anything good to say about floats, or the float 3's. The Float Evols are better but I'd still choose a good coil over.

Ditto, floats are crap give me a coil over any day. As for your problem, I added the Raptor triple rates this year and I'm pretty pleased with them, they really smoothed things out and so far I have only bottomed them once. Not a big investment for the level of improvement they provide.

M5

 

[Adobe-Al]

with my pack on and full gear, i'm sure I weigh north of 230. i'm about 212 buck nake'd. Currently trimming down though (cheaper than after market piggy backs!!!). I am a fairly aggressive rider and i'm not light, so i'm sure i'm asking a bit much from the stock suspension.

I found the same difference between the 15 and 16 kits. 16 kits rides higher, doesn't bottom as much - the 15 kits sags a bit in the rear and bottoms like crazy. I haven't noticed the 16 kit trenching more though?

I have about 3/4' of preload on the front and rear shock. Gonna spin my rear spring a little tighter this weekend and see how it goes.

My 16 st in stock form(stock preload) just seems to be a little slower to climb back on top of deep powder. It also has a tendency to washout the rear a little more my 15 st. on extreme sidehills. Thinking about swapping the 16 st from the YZ to CRF. Hard to tell if the kits or bikes are making things difficult to compare. I might try your 3/4' sag. I assume you are talking about your 16

 

[CATSLEDMAN1]

rear suspension issues

I like all the posts here and agree with most.

1 I have yet to ride a snow bike kit with suspension I though was good, they all have issues. Maybe the guys from Moscow are closest.

2. I have had the coil overs on my last three kits apart a dozen times fooling with the valving , lots of work and never spectacular results.
It takes a lot of shop time , shocks in and out, lots of weekends confused over changes and if they are an improvement. 'What we know is the last 30 years of big money manufacturers building MX bikes they have only made small incremental improvements in suspension, only maybe one of ten models hit the show room with adequate racing suspension setups. THAT SAYS A LOT ABOUT HOW HARD IT IS TO MAKE REALLY NICE SUSPESNSION.

3. I don't think our kits and bikes work well together, its a poor thrown together design, the best for now, I love it and its fun, but a design master piece it is not.

4. The 13 14 15 coil over FOX shocks on my kits are an internal design that is 20 years old. The critical parts are interchangeable with any 20 year old ARCTIC or Polaris fox shocks, and some of the hardware has been downgraded to bring down price and making it tougher to easily do your own shock work.

5 the upside is the shocks are brutally simple. the big fallacy is the nitrogen in the shocks are a big deal and stop most from doing their own work. The nitrogen is absolutely not critical. Meaning air works fine especially for experimenting. If the nitrogen was critical, then all we'd put in our forks or floats and tires...........not a big deal. So anything over 150 psi back in the air chamber will work fine, 200 and up just means more compression dampening ( read harsher initial push down on the shaft ).

6 all the TS shocks I have redone needed new oil. The ice wipers on these shocks is poor to ok, so back to the late 90's when our FOX sled shocks were water contaminated after a season. The front shock in the skid takes all the abuse, so fix that first. And new oil will help.
14 kit shock last week, oil a little milky, not bad, would have locked up below about zero, but inside showing lots of corrosion. it was overdue

7 So with the valve shims in these shocks the possiblities are unlimited. But the good suspensions of the world are good designs. I think all the valve changes in the world on these can't really fix the design we have. Our TS/YETI / CMX/ ADRN suspesnions are a watered down version of what has come on sleds for 30 years. A few tweaks, absolutely nothing earth shattering. So , a bandaid is the valving. But hey, lets tweak the valving but have realistic expectations about results.

8. I would like to see some guys get into their shocks and let us know how it worked for them ?
Best place to find more shims is old shocks. Stupid expensive for what they are. Over the years the fox shock incremental improvements have been.........more thinner shims. So a 1995 shocks had a stack of .015 to .010 shims. Now we see a lots of bigger diamerter ( flimsy ) thinner shims.... lots of ,006 to ,010 shims. So be creative, changes need to be kind of radical to establish some boundaries, whats really disappointing is making what you think is a big change, reair/reoil/reassemble/reinstall/wait for the weeken and find almost no change ? Yeah that's shock tuning.


6.

 

[mrquick68]

I like all the posts here and agree with most.

1 I have yet to ride a snow bike kit with suspension I though was good, they all have issues. Maybe the guys from Moscow are closest.

2. I have had the coil overs on my last three kits apart a dozen times fooling with the valving , lots of work and never spectacular results.
It takes a lot of shop time , shocks in and out, lots of weekends confused over changes and if they are an improvement. 'What we know is the last 30 years of big money manufacturers building MX bikes they have only made small incremental improvements in suspension, only maybe one of ten models hit the show room with adequate racing suspension setups. THAT SAYS A LOT ABOUT HOW HARD IT IS TO MAKE REALLY NICE SUSPESNSION.

3. I don't think our kits and bikes work well together, its a poor thrown together design, the best for now, I love it and its fun, but a design master piece it is not.

4. The 13 14 15 coil over FOX shocks on my kits are an internal design that is 20 years old. The critical parts are interchangeable with any 20 year old ARCTIC or Polaris fox shocks, and some of the hardware has been downgraded to bring down price and making it tougher to easily do your own shock work.

5 the upside is the shocks are brutally simple. the big fallacy is the nitrogen in the shocks are a big deal and stop most from doing their own work. The nitrogen is absolutely not critical. Meaning air works fine especially for experimenting. If the nitrogen was critical, then all we'd put in our forks or floats and tires...........not a big deal. So anything over 150 psi back in the air chamber will work fine, 200 and up just means more compression dampening ( read harsher initial push down on the shaft ).

6 all the TS shocks I have redone needed new oil. The ice wipers on these shocks is poor to ok, so back to the late 90's when our FOX sled shocks were water contaminated after a season. The front shock in the skid takes all the abuse, so fix that first. And new oil will help.
14 kit shock last week, oil a little milky, not bad, would have locked up below about zero, but inside showing lots of corrosion. it was overdue

7 So with the valve shims in these shocks the possiblities are unlimited. But the good suspensions of the world are good designs. I think all the valve changes in the world on these can't really fix the design we have. Our TS/YETI / CMX/ ADRN suspesnions are a watered down version of what has come on sleds for 30 years. A few tweaks, absolutely nothing earth shattering. So , a bandaid is the valving. But hey, lets tweak the valving but have realistic expectations about results.

8. I would like to see some guys get into their shocks and let us know how it worked for them ?
Best place to find more shims is old shocks. Stupid expensive for what they are. Over the years the fox shock incremental improvements have been.........more thinner shims. So a 1995 shocks had a stack of .015 to .010 shims. Now we see a lots of bigger diamerter ( flimsy ) thinner shims.... lots of ,006 to ,010 shims. So be creative, changes need to be kind of radical to establish some boundaries, whats really disappointing is making what you think is a big change, reair/reoil/reassemble/reinstall/wait for the weeken and find almost no change ? Yeah that's shock tuning.


6.

you pretty much summed it up. I think its going to be very hard to get these kits to have "great" suspension, even "good" for that matter. We may have to live with "good enough" for awhile. I was never happy with my skid's on sleds either, so i guess it just moved right over to these kits, as they just have mini-sled skids in them. If i get them stiff enough to hold up to the abuse, then they trench like crazy. Set them up soft enough to pop on top of the snow - then they bottom like crazy...

I believe the best "good enough" is light slow speed, and firm high speed. Is that possible in these ancient designed fox shocks?