The "Pump Gas kit/Race Gas kit" misconception

[mynewuseddoo]

Hey, for all you guys and gals out there considering a turbo and think that getting a Race Gas kit means that you "NEED" race gas to use it, YOU DON'T. Having a race gas kit simply means that your turbo kit has the potential to turn your boost levels up to the point where you would need to run AV gas or Race Gas if you chose to do so. You can run a "Race Gas" turbo kit with premium fuel at lower boost levels, i.e: pump gas kit boost levels.

Down the road you WILL want more boost, don't kid yourselves. And with some new advancements you can run higher boost levels on pump gas now, assuming your fuel system can handle the load.

Now remember what we've learned here today..... a pump gas kit AND a race gas kit, BOTH KITS CAN RUN ON PUMP GAS. It all depends on how much boost you want to run and at what elevation you want to run it at.

 

[RACINSTATION]

One footnote. Some of the race gas kits actually have a head design that WON'T work on pump gas. Elevation is also a factor. Pump gas on 7 lbs of boost at 8500 feet is different than pump gas on 7lbs of boost at sea level.

I wholeheartedly agree that you will want more if you buy the pump gas kit though!

 

[WyoBoy1000]

pg means you will run out of injector capacity, rg means you can run pg on as of boost until deto happens, which could mean a few pounds more boost on 91 octane if setup right. Or add rg and let here rip

 

[jgw50]

And to really make it confusing, a pump gas kit can require race gas at certain boost / elevation! Case in point... My m8 "pump gas kit" can supply enough fuel to run 9lbs of boost, but at 6500 feet elevation, my machine will knock on pump gas with ethanol.


Really the whole terminology is screwed up. It should be "stock fuel delivery capacity" and "upgraded fuel delivery capacity".

An example:
A "pump gas" M8 can support roughly 200 hp on the stock injectors / fuel pump ie, it has "stock fuel delivery capacity" How you get to those 200 hp is up to you. 10,000 feet at 12 lbs, or 9 lbs at 7000 feet, both need the same amount of fuel, but have different octane requirements to avoid knock. If you want to run pump gas, you really need to set your turbo at a lame 5psi and run pump gas. You can take your"pump gas kit" turn up the boost and get 200hp, but you'll prob need some race gas or avgas.

A Race Gas M8 can supply lots of horsepower due to secondary injectors and big fuel pump. In this case, octane / knock is your only limiting factor. So here, if you want to run a lame 5psi, then do it, and run pump gas and be fine. If you don't want to be constantly messing with your boost pressure and want to run much higher than 8 lbs anywhere, you'll need to start looking at race gas. If you want to run 30psi, I bet the "race gas" fuel system can handle it, but your crank, pistons, and race gas wont be able to.

**disclaimer** all boost numbers / HP numbers are estimates and used for an example... Run whatever boost and fuel you want, i've found that with my water / air IC, I can run 9lbs on my pump kit down to 7000 feet without worry. Thats me, others machines cannot do this, i'm awesome.

 

[mynewuseddoo]

And to really make it confusing, a pump gas kit can require race gas at certain boost / elevation! Case in point... My m8 "pump gas kit" can supply enough fuel to run 9lbs of boost, but at 6500 feet elevation, my machine will knock on pump gas with ethanol.


Really the whole terminology is screwed up. It should be "stock fuel delivery capacity" and "upgraded fuel delivery capacity".

An example:
A "pump gas" M8 can support roughly 200 hp on the stock injectors / fuel pump ie, it has "stock fuel delivery capacity" How you get to those 200 hp is up to you. 10,000 feet at 12 lbs, or 9 lbs at 7000 feet, both need the same amount of fuel, but have different octane requirements to avoid knock. If you want to run pump gas, you really need to set your turbo at a lame 5psi and run pump gas. You can take your"pump gas kit" turn up the boost and get 200hp, but you'll prob need some race gas or avgas.

A Race Gas M8 can supply lots of horsepower due to secondary injectors and big fuel pump. In this case, octane / knock is your only limiting factor. So here, if you want to run a lame 5psi, then do it, and run pump gas and be fine. If you don't want to be constantly messing with your boost pressure and want to run much higher than 8 lbs anywhere, you'll need to start looking at race gas. If you want to run 30psi, I bet the "race gas" fuel system can handle it, but your crank, pistons, and race gas wont be able to.

**disclaimer** all boost numbers / HP numbers are estimates and used for an example... Run whatever boost and fuel you want, i've found that with my water / air IC, I can run 9lbs on my pump kit down to 7000 feet without worry. Thats me, others machines cannot do this, i'm awesome.

Bwahahah!!! I love the disclaimer! "I'm awesome" and "a lame 5 psi", love it, laughing my a$$ off right now lol! I like the different terminology you used too.

 

[WyoBoy1000]

**disclaimer** all boost numbers / HP numbers are estimates and used for an example... Run whatever boost and fuel you want, i've found that with my water / air IC, I can run 9lbs on my pump kit down to 7000 feet without worry. Thats me, others machines cannot do this, i'm awesome.

Well put.

LMFAO.

Boom!

 

[FBM]

$20000.00 sled.Pump premium $1.30/ litre AV gas $1.5/ litre . Difference on a 5 gallon pail about $5.00. Five buck won't even buy a bag of ice and a bottle of mix. If you run boost run good fuel ie: Av gas.

 

[WyoBoy1000]

av gas is not the best fuel you can get, its a little slower but it does do the job.

 

[mynewuseddoo]

I think bang for the buck, av gas is a fantastic, well priced fuel for people wanting to run higher boost. The next step up into a proper race fuel is a very big jump in price.

 

[Matte Murder]

I ran av gas in my formula ford race car. One thing we found was that av gas was super consistent geographically. Av gas we bought in Seattle ran the same tune that av gas we bought in Portland o4 Cali. My engine guy(Ivey Engines) said av gas was "dry" and recommended we run a little oil to help with longevity of the top end. Ie valves, seats and guides in our 4 stroke motors. Do you guys premix a little oil when running av gas? Also, it ran much colder in the carb than race gas and you would sometimes see frost on the carb when it was colder, like 40-50 F. Do sled engines ever ice up carbs or injectors when running av gas?

 

[JasonAK]

I ran av gas in my formula ford race car. One thing we found was that av gas was super consistent geographically. Av gas we bought in Seattle ran the same tune that av gas we bought in Portland o4 Cali. My engine guy(Ivey Engines) said av gas was "dry" and recommended we run a little oil to help with longevity of the top end. Ie valves, seats and guides in our 4 stroke motors. Do you guys premix a little oil when running av gas? Also, it ran much colder in the carb than race gas and you would sometimes see frost on the carb when it was colder, like 40-50 F. Do sled engines ever ice up carbs or injectors when running av gas?

Here is some info on AV GAS I have run it in my sled down to -30F.

All you need to know. http://www.bp.com/sectiongenericarticle.do?categoryId=4503701&contentId=57723

 

[WyoBoy1000]

Agree av is a cheap alternative, but from what I could tell 2 gal of rg vs 2 gal of av gas the rg was more responsive/rippier. Or maybe it was just bad belt, I run both and other than the av taking a toll on A/F sensors it seems to work.

We have heated throttle bodies, maybe the cooler running fuel is why with only 2 gal of av I can run 2-3 more lbs of boost without deto, who knows

 

[mynewuseddoo]

My buddy and I have been tossing around the idea of buying a drum of race gas just to see the difference between it and av. I know without mixing any premium and just running straight av my sled is a dog in the lower rpm, up top it hauls. Must be more light ends in the race gas even with the high octane rating of it. Sunoco 110 is just about double the price of av though. I'm not sure if the performance would justify the extra expense.

Wyo, is it worth the extra dough do you think? Or depends? Save the race gas for a special big hill climbing day and run an av/premium mix on normal days?

 

[FBM]

I guess I left a little info out. I do most of my riding at 1300ft. I know some engines in some conditions do not like to much octane. My turbo apex hated having any race fuel in it at elevation. Run best on pump for the boost I was putting to it. My M8 runs the same on C111 or AV, but this is at low elevation and 8 lbs boost. Out west I may have to mix in some pump. BD does not think so but we will see. I do run 100:1 premix b/c of the so called dryness. Maybe you don't have too but what does it cost to put a couple litres of oil in a $300 drum of AV? Around home I always hear people talking about trying to run cheap fuel in an expensive sled to save money. Another good one I hear is turning the oil pump down to save money. Nuts!!! Adjusting because of a performance issue is one thing but if you are adjusting to try and save a few pennies(in relation to whole cost of this thing we do), trouble is coming your way. On another note, there is nothing like the smell of spent AV in the morning! Cheers

 

[WyoBoy1000]

WNR, it sounds to me like you are running way to much octane.


The up top performance mean nothing to me because I can just add more boost if I want, I run most of the time from 8-10lbs and want it to be crisp and clean, av ever so slightly seems a bit slower on the uptake, but its not like I have drained it and compared, so the difference could be other factors. 2 gal of rg is pretty cheap, I can't justify driving to the air port for the difference, if you filled up a 55 gal of av and used that it would be cheaper but I just drive out and throw some in. I am thinking of just using the boost juice twisted sells to see what it does. seeing how I don't run over 10lbs most of the time it should be pretty easy and cost effective. For anyone running a system, I would actually try to hit the det sensor by starting low and turning it up a little at a time. det code 21 is no big deal, det code 23 is the one you want to worry about. But if you run 6lbs and think thats all you can get then turn it up to 9lbs before you see det then you will know your limit and instead of dumping in 2 gal of rg to run 8lbs you then know you are just over octane, and could prob add 1 gal of rg and run 9lbs safely or 2 gal and 10lbs. There are way to many people running high octane and loosing performance. I know lots of guys running high octane in dirt bikes thinking its the bomb, are lowest elevation here is 4000ft and up, they are amazed at the low end performance on pump gas.