You're too smart to be asking this.
Thank you snowmobile riders!
- Thread starter Randonnee
- Start date
You're too smart to be asking this.
Rando acts like a third grade brat (i'm going to tell on you) ! He's a selfish skinny skier that wants all the backcountry to himself ! Get a life Rando and find somewhere else to throw your threats of being a rat !
Talk at the level of your audience... someone smart once told me...
So what does that make us? The kids that think it is cool to not obey the law? You know... the kids that were cool in high school and middle school but it ended up that their attitude was selfish and the end up going no where with their lives and turn into pathetic old people that only complain? lol how did I do? ha ha
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Uller
Member
From what I've read... he doesn't appear to be an ANTI-SNOWMOBILER dude.. seems like he's an anti-snowmobile in wilderness dude.
CoyoteGirl,
I can understand your point however, there is one key part of this issue and Rando's threats that your missing.
While, he has mentioned areas that are wilderness in previous posts (I don't consider riding on the other side of a ridge which has an imaginary line on it to be criminal when we are talking about thousands of thousands of acres of wilderness but, that is another conversation/topic all together) he has specifically mentioned and keeps mentioning the Tronsen "Non-Motorized" Area. While this area is set aside for Non-motorized recreation it is not designated as a wilderness area. It seems that Rando is merging the two into one issue which, is anti-snowmobile.
Rando states, "Just wanted to throw some positive and appreciative words out here! Snowmobilers this past week obeyed (new) signs which designate no snowmobiling in the Tronsen Non-Motorized Area. Hooray, and thanks!"
I have skied/skinned that area on numerous occasions prior to sledding. It kinda sucks really. Boring terrain. Our main access trail runs right through it though. Could that be part of the problem? Who created a non-motorized area with a motorized road running through it? Could it have been the USFS? Did anyone think of the issues related to this during the planning stages?
Could the trespassers, as Rando refers to them, really be just a small group of new riders who don't completely understand the system of imaginary lines, that run through the mountains, that limit the areas we can ride in? Probably.
If the trenches, that make Rando so mad that he must call the USFS and Sherrif to complain, weren't there would he even be able to tell if a snowmobile was previously there?
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Uller
Member
Ruffryder,
Man, I just really don't know what to say to you. Did you try to insult me on the old internet? From behind your computer screen?
Do you know who I am? Would you be able to pick me out of the crowd or be able to tell who I am while riding in the mountains?????
Funny thing is, I can pick you out while your on the hill. I have seen/ridden with you on a couple of occasions.
I would say exactly what I have stated on here, to your face. And feel completely comfortable about it.
Would you do the same to me? How would you feel?
If I were you, I would think about that for a little bit.
Man, I just really don't know what to say to you. Did you try to insult me on the old internet? From behind your computer screen?
Do you know who I am? Would you be able to pick me out of the crowd or be able to tell who I am while riding in the mountains?????
Funny thing is, I can pick you out while your on the hill. I have seen/ridden with you on a couple of occasions.
I would say exactly what I have stated on here, to your face. And feel completely comfortable about it.
Would you do the same to me? How would you feel?
If I were you, I would think about that for a little bit.
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I don't think so... it should be pretty clear when I am going for an insult. Like if I were to say you were a dumb redneck hillbilly and you should stay away from your goats for a little while and talk to some real people, that would be an insult.
Just trying to be clear. LMAO.Anyways, no insults were meant here, just seems like everyone is using Randonnee as a person as to which they can express all their anger towards. Yes skiers piss us off, snowmobilers do to. Snowmobilers that give a black eye to the sport and don't care about their actions and how they effect the sport piss me off even more.
Nope, probably not. Are you a fan boy? If you know who I am yet I don't know who you are, aren't you the one hiding behind the computer?
Anyways, you want to ride next weekend? I will buy you a beer afterwords and we can discuss this topic then as well.
I would say what I have stated on here and more. Probably talk more crap to you like I do with my friends and they do with me. Lighten up, this is the internet.
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Randonnee
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Thank you for the kind comments folks! The goal is the same, to talk about the problem of snowmobiling done in Wilderness and in Closed areas. It is great to hear from reasonable folks here, reasonable folks are likely the majority. I have not encountered folks on snowmobiles who were not just great folks.
For some others, as previously written here:
"The Law creating Wilderness was nothing that I did personally, I do not support the expansion of existing Wilderness, but I am glad that we have some Wilderness. I would prefer to ski closer to the car, but except for the Tronsen Non-Motorized area (that is also getting snomo-trespassed) there is not much close-accessible terrain for skiing, and a lot of that is tracked by snowmobiles and then poor skiing or non-skiable. I really do not know what your point is other than you sound pissed. Actually I walk about 6 hours on skis for every hour on a snowmachine to get there to start. Those hours walking are exchanged for a few runs, and the time walking and downhill skiing is of a higher quality done in silence and without trenches dug by snowmobiles- oh yeah, that Wilderness thing. If there was more plowed road access for ski touring terrain that was not trenched and tracked by snowmobiles- as in the Alps, for example- there would be less need to use a snowmobile to ski. Interesting that you express so much anger at a polite request to follow the Law. The fact is, I remember fondly the days in the '80s that I spent in Negro Creek and on Navaho and Brothers before snowmobiles got in there. However it is lawful for snowmobiles to go there, so I recognize and respect that snowmobile riders enjoy those areas as do us skiers or snowshoers."
If someone is unable to read a map and know the Regulations- well, I don't know what to say. Wilderness snowmobile trespass is obviously intentional and apparently seen as a 'right' by some.
Speaking of crossing lines...Some of the postings here sound like talk from someone suffering alcoholic encephalopathy. There is an array of medication used to treat such delirium. At best such language would be from some sort of sociopath. Don't know what happened to the Moderator, he originally said he was going to keep this thread positive.
Thanks again snowmobilers!
For some others, as previously written here:
"The Law creating Wilderness was nothing that I did personally, I do not support the expansion of existing Wilderness, but I am glad that we have some Wilderness. I would prefer to ski closer to the car, but except for the Tronsen Non-Motorized area (that is also getting snomo-trespassed) there is not much close-accessible terrain for skiing, and a lot of that is tracked by snowmobiles and then poor skiing or non-skiable. I really do not know what your point is other than you sound pissed. Actually I walk about 6 hours on skis for every hour on a snowmachine to get there to start. Those hours walking are exchanged for a few runs, and the time walking and downhill skiing is of a higher quality done in silence and without trenches dug by snowmobiles- oh yeah, that Wilderness thing. If there was more plowed road access for ski touring terrain that was not trenched and tracked by snowmobiles- as in the Alps, for example- there would be less need to use a snowmobile to ski. Interesting that you express so much anger at a polite request to follow the Law. The fact is, I remember fondly the days in the '80s that I spent in Negro Creek and on Navaho and Brothers before snowmobiles got in there. However it is lawful for snowmobiles to go there, so I recognize and respect that snowmobile riders enjoy those areas as do us skiers or snowshoers."
If someone is unable to read a map and know the Regulations- well, I don't know what to say. Wilderness snowmobile trespass is obviously intentional and apparently seen as a 'right' by some.
Speaking of crossing lines...Some of the postings here sound like talk from someone suffering alcoholic encephalopathy. There is an array of medication used to treat such delirium. At best such language would be from some sort of sociopath. Don't know what happened to the Moderator, he originally said he was going to keep this thread positive.
Thanks again snowmobilers!
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from what ive read on here you want sledders to stay out of wilderness i can respect that but the difference between you and alot of other sledders on here is that we are sledders it is a passion it is to us what skiing is to you you use a sled as a tool to enjoy your sport so for you to report it is a win win if you report it then it gives them more amo to shut it down whih means you dont need the tool [sled] to get to the back country if they dont shut it down but start righting tickets then people wont cross the imaginary line and you get your fresh powder for you its win win for the rest of us its not beause the reality is its JUST AMMO TO SHUT IT DOWN it works for you you can then sled near your car as for the imaginary line id like someone to show me the south side of Baker in person the forest ranger could not eandonee just a suggestion but instead of telling mommy sorry big bother try just talking to sledders you see if your serious if not stick it where the sun dont shine.go ahead mod delete edit do what you do does freedom of speach mean anything?
I see SnoWest members engaging in a heated discussion, Both sides of this discussion have the right to their opinions. No one has crossed the line in their disagreements here. You, however, are very close with you last statement. You can have and express a different viewpoint, belief, outlook, whatever...........but name calling and personal attacks won't be tolerated. Don't resort to name calling, then wonder where I am.
This is a very volatile topic, and I appreciate the fact that you step into "The Lions Dens" to discuss it. That being said, you are in the "Lions Den", if you want to get your highly inflammatory point across and have people engage you in a mature conversation, you need to be a step above. You appear to be a educated man with a very good handle on the English language. Don't expect to come and discuss this topic, get into a pissing match with people and expect everyone to "just play nice". I'm not saying that you shouldn't be here and you shouldn't speak out for what you believe. But, a word of advice......If you loose the "righteous, I'm better than you" tone in your text and try to discuss this like a winter enthusiast to another winter enthusiast instead of framing a contest of wills between sledders and skiers, you'd probably have a good, intelligent, productive conversation.
This is a very true statement with regards to the numbers. The people here in these forums are the ones who foster and promote snowmobiling. Work with them, don't attack and accuse them. They are actually your allies to achieve what you want. You want your non motorized zones to stay sled free, we don't want to loose any more area. Work together to achieve our common goal.
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WAmtnsledr
Well-known member
you come here and say thanks then you say things like this and expect a positive response?
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Randonnee
ACCOUNT CLOSED
Well sir I wondered where you were when the unprovoked vile names were flung above. I waited for days to see some of that kept "positive." Glad to see that you are on the job to keep me in line.
Very good, thank you. Read my words, I state that face-to-face snowmobilers are great folks in my experience. Yes, it is obvious that only a few break the Law, that is clear as well. it is the problem that is the point, and the community is encouraged to participate. Some on this Forum claim to wish to break the law. Most are great folks, obviously.
It is indeed interesting to learn that a discussion of following the long-established Law here is so controversial! Some here attempt to make the problem this poster who wants to talk about the issue. It seems that name calling of me is all good and when I respond without specificity then I am bad, according to the above. So I need to dare say my piece then just get name-called etc. Above Moderator had stated that he wanted to keep this positive- what happened to that? Numerous foul postings with name calling of me- untouched by Moderator.So those foul names toward me here after I carefully and politely make a point- those are all good and apparently some of you think I just should shut up. Perhaps it is hard to understand, but I believe that snowmobilers should not see a few punks try to intimidate someone (skier) who is trying to do the right thing- that is why I will push back.
Well thanks for all of the intelligent replies here. And really, thanks to considerate snowmobilers who allow others their legitimate uses. This site demonstrates that snowmobilers are great folks for the most part. A few do not want to discuss a serious issue and then spew filth, apparently with Moderator approval, especially when at this messenger. Goodbye, I am likely off of here, but thanks to those great folks that I mentioned.
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Randonnee
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Thanks and have a great weekend!
Regarding the Tronsen area, if I'm not mistaken, that is a fairly recent closure and it was closed because DIRT BIKES were not staying on the trail like they were directed to?
Now I ride dirt bikes and have since the mid-60's, so I'm not "anti-dirt" bike. I don't like the closure, but understand it and think it should not apply to sleds, we don't damage the terrain like the bikes and quads were. We also get a bad rap because we leave evidence we were there; not always the case in the summer. The Forest has created a little mini-wilderness in the middle of a popular snowmobiling area......
My guess is most riding sleds in there are not aware of the closure and it's not intentional. Hopefully the signs will educate more will comply.........
Now I ride dirt bikes and have since the mid-60's, so I'm not "anti-dirt" bike. I don't like the closure, but understand it and think it should not apply to sleds, we don't damage the terrain like the bikes and quads were. We also get a bad rap because we leave evidence we were there; not always the case in the summer. The Forest has created a little mini-wilderness in the middle of a popular snowmobiling area......
My guess is most riding sleds in there are not aware of the closure and it's not intentional. Hopefully the signs will educate more will comply.........
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Randonnee
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Hey Lake Cle Elum,
Thanks for adding to the discussion!
To my knowledge that is a long term closure for Non-Motorized recreation. The first skier/ snowshoe trail was cut in 1964 on the north flank of Diamond Head, up Windy Gully and to Haney Meadow. This is a "blue diamond" trail- marked with blue diamonds which indicate a non-motorized winter trail. There is an extensive network of blue diamond trails in Pipe Creek and Tronsen Non-Motorized Areas. The map online and at Trailheads shows these Non-Motorized Areas.
Yes, more signs are needed on the top ridge County Line Boundary. A few more were placed this season and more will be placed according to my USFS Contact. Like many areas, that upper ridge Boundary perhaps was not seen as an area of possible snowmobile access in the past. However, maps have always shown the Non- Motorized Areas.
I agree that Boundaries need to be clear to enhance compliance and prevent accidental violation.
Yes, I also own a dirt bike, a Jeep, and three snowmobiles. Also two mountain bikes and eight ski setups, climbing gear and backpack gear. USFS has created opportunities for all types of recreation, so my thing is to help protect a diminishing opportunity for Non-Motorized on-the-snow recreation. Not long ago I found lots of untracked to ski in areas open to snowmobiles. Not as much now with the improved snowmobile technology- snowmobiles now follow my downhill ski tracks that emerge from the woods right back up. Now, that is all fine, it is your right in areas legal for snowmobiles, I ride my snowmobile in some of those places as well. I am just making the point that, OK, we need to protect the Non-Motorized snow recreation that is (previously) set aside.
Thanks very much for the discussion.
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I understand your mission and thanks for letting me know it's been closed longer than I though. I've never snowmobiled north of the 9712 road, but did recall something on a FS website about a recent closure of some trails to dirt bikes/quads......Had never ridden those trails, I know know the word "Tronsen" was somewhere in the verbage.......Take care......
I think Randonnee has accomplished just what he came to accomplish; getting lots of attention, stirring up trouble and starting arguments. In his very first thread, did anyone else noticed how quickly he became upset and how quickly his tone changed when nobody would respond? His posts are riddled with comments that are passive aggressive in nature. People like this get off on trolling internet forums using passive aggressive snide remarks as bait, and then they're giddy as a school girl when people take the bait, and the arguments start spawning.
Lots of people are taking the bait and running with it, giving him the attention and entertainment he came here for. IMO, the best way to deal with people who troll internet forums trying to stir up trouble is to completely ignore them and not take the bait. If they don't get the attention they're starving for, they will go away fairly quickly.
Lots of people are taking the bait and running with it, giving him the attention and entertainment he came here for. IMO, the best way to deal with people who troll internet forums trying to stir up trouble is to completely ignore them and not take the bait. If they don't get the attention they're starving for, they will go away fairly quickly.
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Randonnee
ACCOUNT CLOSED
Lake Cle Elum,
There is a Seasonal Closure for Motorized for Trails and I think also the Road from out past Devil's Gulch toward Beehive for a certain distance. I copied this from the USFS map on the website-
Seasonal Trail Closure for
Motorcycles
October 15—June 15
Upper Red Hill Trail #1223
Tronsen Ridge #1204
Tronsen Meadow Trail #1205
Closure in effect to protect
elk calving habitat
There is some nice motorcycle riding in that area -nice meaning scenic. I used to ride my dirt bike, now I mountain bike up there with my family.
