My track is adjusted to what the specs call for and it is very hard to spin by hand. Is anyone else noticing this, is it part in due to the tight drive belt. I havent ridden it yet so Im sure it will loosen a bit I just didnt think it would be so hard to turn. Thanks
Spinning the track by hand, hard to do
- Thread starter bubba94
- Start date
They have to be run at or close to specs for the track to function properly and not ratchet. How difficult a track turn by hand means nothing anymore. Just make sure it's aligned at at the proper tension and you're good to go. If it's a new sled or track, it will loosen up and require it to be tightened up again.
It should be hard to turn don't loosen it. It stretches after the first few rides.
my 012 was tight also and i like "WTF"...check specs 3/8-1/2" with 10lbs weight...rode it as is,it streched a bit but nothing huge
T
TracksCanada
Member
OR you could get rid of the POS factory drivers and put a set of extroverts on and never worry about it again.
"oil of olay" is great to spray on the track to make it supple and turn really easy..
yea right..
yea right..
Just my $0.02, but IMO both the drivers and the tail rollers need to be at least 8" diameter if you are trying to get rid of the rolling resistance. These 7 and 8 tooth drivers are a joke, in my opinion they should be at least 9 tooth in all the pitches. Back when the Mountain tracks were 2.52" Pitch I ran a 10 tooth drivers for rolling resistance reasons. Now that mountain tracks are 2.86" and 3" Pitches 9 tooth is my minimum. With the super short center to center of the PRO you are left with stretching the center to center distance to have any chance of getting a decent roll on. Don't let anyone tell you different if you can't easily push or pull the sled around you are waisting Horse Power needlessly. Your only options that I'm aware of is the AVID extended case with or without the C3 belt drive or the CMX extended belt drive. Both are expensive optional upgrades and are rumored to cause some degradation in the handling of the PRO. Your other option is to build the PRO from scratch and raise the top of the tunnel so that you still get the clearance for a decent sized driver and can leave the driver in the stock location. The later would be my ideal, but then I'm no stranger to building sleds from scratch. The rest of you will have to make that decision for yourselves.
Loudhandle,
Here is my take on the topic... for discussion... IMO. to simply expand the discussion....With sincere respect to you and your view.
I agree with most of your post... but since the tracks have gone to single ply... the rolling resistance has decreased and min bend for efficiency has decreased.
Yes ... larger drivers and idlers will roll more easily... but the amount of difference has changed greatly since the change... And makes me wonder what the break even point is.
I've discussed this in depth with the people at Camoplast. and tried it on the hill.
There is a payoff between track efficiency at doing its job and parasitic loss from proper tension. Yes you loose Some hp... but you make up for it from the track doing it's job ... a looser track will allow the track to deform as it goes down the rail.
Paddles don't just "lay over" the whole track "sawtooths" as it goes down the rail.
This is a balancing act... tight tracks roll with more resistance, especially on a track stand as you pull it by hand... AND they function better from not standing up.
Now... I've heard the analogy of "Pulling a track around" when the sled is suspended... or "Pulling it across the floor" and both are easier with a looser track... but that is not necessarily the case when you have all 120+ HP DRIVING the track under load. As a track "wrinkles down the rail, because the belt is not tight enough to keep the paddles standing up, the friction actually increases drastically as the clips now "scrape" down the hifax on edge rather than the flats.
Single ply tracks "wrinkle" easier than the 2 ply tracks.
Also, on the PRO-RMK's... if you look at one where the track is run loose by installing combo drivers or you will see black skid-marks on the roof of the tunnel towards the front... robbing HUGE hp and causing the secondary to see an inaccurate torque signal.
Here are some previous posts that I feel apply here... again IMO.
Here is my take on the topic... for discussion... IMO. to simply expand the discussion....With sincere respect to you and your view.
I agree with most of your post... but since the tracks have gone to single ply... the rolling resistance has decreased and min bend for efficiency has decreased.
Yes ... larger drivers and idlers will roll more easily... but the amount of difference has changed greatly since the change... And makes me wonder what the break even point is.
I've discussed this in depth with the people at Camoplast. and tried it on the hill.
There is a payoff between track efficiency at doing its job and parasitic loss from proper tension. Yes you loose Some hp... but you make up for it from the track doing it's job ... a looser track will allow the track to deform as it goes down the rail.
Paddles don't just "lay over" the whole track "sawtooths" as it goes down the rail.
This is a balancing act... tight tracks roll with more resistance, especially on a track stand as you pull it by hand... AND they function better from not standing up.
Now... I've heard the analogy of "Pulling a track around" when the sled is suspended... or "Pulling it across the floor" and both are easier with a looser track... but that is not necessarily the case when you have all 120+ HP DRIVING the track under load. As a track "wrinkles down the rail, because the belt is not tight enough to keep the paddles standing up, the friction actually increases drastically as the clips now "scrape" down the hifax on edge rather than the flats.
Single ply tracks "wrinkle" easier than the 2 ply tracks.
Also, on the PRO-RMK's... if you look at one where the track is run loose by installing combo drivers or you will see black skid-marks on the roof of the tunnel towards the front... robbing HUGE hp and causing the secondary to see an inaccurate torque signal.
Here are some previous posts that I feel apply here... again IMO.
Al, I've seen this argument before... I'll give my point of view here... [IMO]. I present this after talking to the people at Camoplast, and other respected people in the field like Jack Struthers.
An OVER-tightened track IS counter productive to performance as you say... not to pe confused with a Properly tightened track.
Since the weight of the sled presses the track against the hyfax (in use, compared to on the stand) the 'loosness' in a loose track has to happen some where... the track does balloon at the top unless the track is unloaded or catches some air.
As much as the track is pulled on the top by the driver, it is "pushed" past the hyfax on the bottom.
The physics of a track and tension / take-up are NOT the same as a chain drive under load. In a sled, the track is what transfers the power to the ground... not transferring power to something else that transfers the power (like in a motorcycle with the sprocket/tire being driven).
With a loose track... the tunnel side of the track cycles thru a herky-jerky motion of going from banjo-string tight to ballooning out as you run with the inherent loading and unloading of the drivetrain that a sled goes thru in acceleration, dealing with terrain and braking... even more exaggerated by the large amount of weight that you added with the studs on your semi-long track ripsaw.
As you point out a properly adjusted track DOES rely on the track being pulled past the rear ider. A looser track cant do this all the time and this is what causes the problems... the looseness in the track has to go somewhere... that somewhere ends up being the distortion of the track as it is crammed past the hyfax or gets tripped up in the drivetrain. This distortion of the track lays the paddles down and tilts the clips on edge which can also accelerate hyfax wear.
As the track leaves the driver, a loose track will get bunched up at the front of the rail... in that situation the rails must strip the loose track from the driver and Force the track down along the rail/hyfax... A loose track does not get "pulled" around the rear idler like a properly tensioned track does.
In this age of single ply tracks, seen mostly on the mountain sleds, the belting of the track is not a rigid as a multi ply track.. they are even more susceptible to this bunching-up of the track as it leaves the drivers.
When the track bunches up between the driver and rail.. this is where the 'stabbing' occurs.
The best analogy of the bunching up that I can think of of is kind of like watching a drag racing tire "wrinkle" as it launches... not a direct analogy... but something that shows the kind of hook-up that a sled with good traction is getting.
I run a 155" to 159" track, NO bogie wheels, standard Hyfax and Avid Drivers with trimmed rails. I run the Polaris Factory prescribed tension on the track. I have yet to stab a track or wear out a set of hyfax during the season but I do replace them long before they are needed at the beginning of each season.
I have yet to see or hear about a 2008+ Polaris IQR with standard combo-toothed drivers and short rail tips stabbing a track... and boy do they punish those sleds!
I have also never smoked a bearing on a driveshaft, but I have replaced them as part of PM on sleds over 2500 miles to protect my ride time on the sled... none of the drive shaft bearings removed on the end or in the case have ever been worn out. I have had jackshaft bearings go on me though, but have since switched out to a greasable PTO side setup and hope for better results there.
IMO, if a loose track gave better performance... the factory race teams would be running that on the snowcrossers and oval track sleds. In this never ending game of trying to outdo each other, the factories would not leave something as easy to fix on the table...again IMO.
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MH,
Nowhere in my post did I advocate a loose track, Proper tension is indeed necessary. In fact that is exactly how I used to tune my tension when I was running the Alcan 200 highway race many years ago. We would do radar runs on the the highway experimenting with different tensions to minimize the parasitic drag from the belly coming off the drivers and smacking the rails. With extremely small changes at the tensioner we could gain 5+ MPH. Granted that is a 200 mile speed run, but the same applies to some degree on any sled. I personally have never needed nor used extroverts because I have always run a large enough diameter driver it has never been an issue. Yes the single ply will bend easier than the older multiply tracks but the theory and basic physics are the same. When you bend something heat is created and energy is spent doing so. Bend it more (sharper) and much more heat is produced (wasted). We have hundreds of electric motors running pumps and other equipment at work, some use a rubber tire style Dodge coupling, if they are aligned perfectly virtually no heat is detectable when the coupling is shot with thermography. Misalign the motor by even a fraction of a degree and the tire starts to register a significant heat signature. If you severely misalign the gear train the tire can get hot enough to fail in just a couple of days. This is exactly why I use a large diameter driver and tail roller, the less sever the bend is the more HP gets to the snow and propel the sled forward, rather than heat generated for no usable purpose / wasted.
You are without a doubt an asset of knowledge on here with your access to various engineers and corporate contacts, but I will continue to read your posts and validate your findings independently. I think because you get to rub shoulders with some of the people that are supposedly in the know you take there line of BS at face value, rather than stepping back and thinking about the reality of it all. I started down the road to be a mechanical engineer early in my career, however life dealt me a detour and I couldn't be happier with the direction life sent me. I now have stamped engineers coming to me for advise as I have a wealth of real world experience that text books just can't offer. For various reasons the manufactures have gone with smaller drivers and Camoplast and others track manufactures are forced to deal with those choices. As has Avid, the cheapest product to offer to run a larger paddle is a smaller driver, always has been. Is it the best? Heck no, but the average Joe won't build a sled from scratch to optimize it. So they settle for an even less efficient setup than the stock compromise was. Most consumers will be happy with that for the money invested, some of us will not tolerate that compromise and devise our own solutions.
Track tension is actually a completely different topic in my opinion.
larger drivers
Loudhandle is correct and Mountainhorse has some credit in there too. My Higher Education bill has been pretty high over my short lifetime so far so all of you youngens out there take note what these guys are talking about. I have seen and gone the "track too loose" where you are just on the edge of ratcheting but when you launch the track will actully fold over and create a blowout and thus lost race and if you are lucky no bent studs or a broke cleat. Life and all of this mechanicle bull is a give and take world. Take to much and you loose! Murphys Law which is for every action there is a equal and opposite reaction applys to anything made of matter. Seen it many a time and sometimes could of been hurt by it. Small deliberate changes till you see a change the other way then back it off! The last sled I built which I vowed never to ever do again I threw everything I had learned into, then I started tweaking. Was a 159 track and by trueing everything, ran 10" drivers and idlers, ported track and used a Whal internal and extrovert drivers to run track looser I seen over 400 RPM gain from stock components. You still could not turn it by hand but with the primary set up correct and belt the correct deflection and length ideling the track will turn pretty easy. The one thing that burned me was the used Union Bay top end I put on it. Thing would run hard for a couple of miles then take out a piston. Did not matter how much fuel I threw at it. Sent domes off to get checked and here the squish on the edge of the dome was just a LITTLE to tight may 10 thousandth's. Union Bay early production on the motor made there own pistons and the ones I was using were just a hair different. I could not believe this was it but it was. Another old hand seen it and caught it on my domes. The manufactories of this stuff try and make a product to fit ALL SIZES and this leaves ALOT of leg room to mess with stuff in SOME areas based on alot of times what the bean counters allow. The first place I allways look is where they do a one size fits all and cover several different models. Clutching is a first for me then suspension. Next I check or true every componet that touches another different componet say track to drivers or belt to clutch. I finally learned in my late 20's to start listening more to all sides then check them out for myself. I also will help out a guy that is willing to learn any time of the day! I seems like those people are getting fewer and fewer but if you get threw to just one you have done your job! Stay thirsty for power my friends! XX
Loudhandle is correct and Mountainhorse has some credit in there too. My Higher Education bill has been pretty high over my short lifetime so far so all of you youngens out there take note what these guys are talking about. I have seen and gone the "track too loose" where you are just on the edge of ratcheting but when you launch the track will actully fold over and create a blowout and thus lost race and if you are lucky no bent studs or a broke cleat. Life and all of this mechanicle bull is a give and take world. Take to much and you loose! Murphys Law which is for every action there is a equal and opposite reaction applys to anything made of matter. Seen it many a time and sometimes could of been hurt by it. Small deliberate changes till you see a change the other way then back it off! The last sled I built which I vowed never to ever do again I threw everything I had learned into, then I started tweaking. Was a 159 track and by trueing everything, ran 10" drivers and idlers, ported track and used a Whal internal and extrovert drivers to run track looser I seen over 400 RPM gain from stock components. You still could not turn it by hand but with the primary set up correct and belt the correct deflection and length ideling the track will turn pretty easy. The one thing that burned me was the used Union Bay top end I put on it. Thing would run hard for a couple of miles then take out a piston. Did not matter how much fuel I threw at it. Sent domes off to get checked and here the squish on the edge of the dome was just a LITTLE to tight may 10 thousandth's. Union Bay early production on the motor made there own pistons and the ones I was using were just a hair different. I could not believe this was it but it was. Another old hand seen it and caught it on my domes. The manufactories of this stuff try and make a product to fit ALL SIZES and this leaves ALOT of leg room to mess with stuff in SOME areas based on alot of times what the bean counters allow. The first place I allways look is where they do a one size fits all and cover several different models. Clutching is a first for me then suspension. Next I check or true every componet that touches another different componet say track to drivers or belt to clutch. I finally learned in my late 20's to start listening more to all sides then check them out for myself. I also will help out a guy that is willing to learn any time of the day! I seems like those people are getting fewer and fewer but if you get threw to just one you have done your job! Stay thirsty for power my friends! XX
My apologies for correcting you but the above quote belongs to Newton, Murphy's claim to fame is "Anything that can go wrong, will go wrong" or very close to that.
No Worries--------Back to Topic
catch
Good catch!! Newton's third law is: For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction! I bow to thee you were the first and only one! I would of personally called BS on me but you were very cordial!! I can't believe you didn't catch the Dos Equis modified line at the end! Have a great one!!!
Good catch!! Newton's third law is: For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction! I bow to thee you were the first and only one! I would of personally called BS on me but you were very cordial!! I can't believe you didn't catch the Dos Equis modified line at the end! Have a great one!!!
willikers...a couple of ya fella's bloat better then a frog...
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