Snowmobiles in Wilderness in the Wenatchee World

[newtrout]

Article from the Wenatchee paper. Basically written by our buddy WMC...

http://www.wenatcheeworld.com/news/2012/jan/28/snowmobiles-theyre-lean-theyre-mean-and-theyre/

 

[BigT]

The article states it pretty well--a few are giving all a bad rep. And then it goes on to talk about more wilderness--same ol story. Pretty sad to see a few taking public land for their own benefit. I pay taxes too

 

[jimbo332]

I find it funny they talk about the smell and the noise and how it ruins they're wilderness time. But yet they never see the sleds that are doing all the trespassing. And the number of reports filed 20 something in what 17 years. Sounds more like a few knuckle heads ruining it for everyone

 

[JETJOHNSO]

A FEW WILL RUIN IT FOR ALL

Not trying to get all political but some people just dont get it. Riding in the wilderness has got to stop. A few "renegades " just keep giving the "greenies" more ammo. Can you imagine loosing Lake Ann and Van Epps to the wilderness, well it's a real threat. I've been riding up there for 25 years and I'd sure hate to loose it.. Once it's gone, it's gone for ever,
just sayin ,,,,,,,,,

 

[Van Epps]

Thank you NT!

Newtrout, thank you for representing the "motorized" community in the article with such articulated input. You provided food for thought and balance to a slightly skewed article. Hopefully the "non motorized" readers honestly consider the information you presented.

 

[diamonddave]

Nice work Jeff.

 

[TooDeepTodd]

Craigslist

This was posted yesterday on the Rants & Raves section of Craigslist regarding this article.

http://wenatchee.craigslist.org/rnr/2825180335.html

Interesting.

 

[eddy]

Wow!

Maybe there is some sanity! Now if as a group we represent ourselves and help the organizations that promote our sport in the legal areas necessary: There is hope for more riding area. The younger generation are more open minded and the idea of mixed use snowmobile/backcountry skiiing is in fact acceptable to them.

Only if more (all!) snowmobilers support the clubs and land access legal organizations that fight for our right to ride can we change the tide that has cost us too many areas where we can not currently ride. WE CAN WIN BECAUSE OUR ARGUMENT TO RIDE IS LEGAL! The Sierra Club argument is not legal or logical and the new generation of outdoors people know it!

 

[tek9tim]

Well, I should preface my thoughts with a couple facts. I have 3 dirtbikes that I ride the hell out of, 5 chainsaws - all modded out and large by logger standards. I absolutely love cutting down trees, large and small. I slay them by the thousands. I drive a 7.3 diesel Ford with nothing but pipe between the turbo and the atmosphere. I own guns. And of course I love riding sleds.

I think wilderness is important. I like being able to go somewhere where I can't hear or see any signs of civilization. Obviously the greenies do too. I think that having parts of our beautiful country set aside to exist in and of itself without the hand of man is important. Something people on both sides of the argument should remember is that the land was set aside for the land's sake.

The craigslist post made a good point, most bc skiers in this area don't mind. Many, if not most, use sleds or at least have used sleds to get back into where they want to ski. And there is a ton of area that most sledders don't go in the even in non-wilderness that they could get fresh tracks in. They just have to do their homework.

I found the World article kinda funny how people expected the FS to really do something about people riding in wilderness. The best sleds those guys have are ZX chassis 600s with 136 tracks, and people who aren't sledders riding them.

But to sum it all up, it's like my momma said when I got in trouble for cussing in grade school, there's an appropriate time and a place for everything. Sleds, chainsaws and dirtbikes don't belong in wilderness. Have some integrity as a sledder, and respect the fact that people want to use our public lands without there being motorized equipment in it. Some people want to enjoy our National Forests on motorized equipment, some want to be in silent solitude in our National Forests. We have ruined their experience in a majority of the public land, since it's non-wilderness. They have ruined our experience on a minority of the land that is designated wilderness. We complain about them trying to take more land from us, and we feel very strongly about it. Realize that they feel just as strongly about their piece of land that doesn't allow motorized access. Every time we poach their land, we are taking it back from being wilderness. Imagine if they could expand wilderness and take land away from us as easily as the bad apples take land from them? We would be outraged.

We each have our ways to enjoy our land and we have a place to do it. We got the good end of the stick, a majority of our National Forest land is non wilderness, let the greenies have what they have. If we don't, they'll backlash and take more land from us. And we won't have a leg to stand on to stop them if we aren't following the rules.

 

[WMC]

Well, I should preface my thoughts with a couple facts. I have 3 dirtbikes that I ride the hell out of, 5 chainsaws - all modded out and large by logger standards. I absolutely love cutting down trees, large and small. I slay them by the thousands. I drive a 7.3 diesel Ford with nothing but pipe between the turbo and the atmosphere. I own guns. And of course I love riding sleds.

I think wilderness is important. I like being able to go somewhere where I can't hear or see any signs of civilization. Obviously the greenies do too. I think that having parts of our beautiful country set aside to exist in and of itself without the hand of man is important. Something people on both sides of the argument should remember is that the land was set aside for the land's sake.

The craigslist post made a good point, most bc skiers in this area don't mind. Many, if not most, use sleds or at least have used sleds to get back into where they want to ski. And there is a ton of area that most sledders don't go in the even in non-wilderness that they could get fresh tracks in. They just have to do their homework.

I found the World article kinda funny how people expected the FS to really do something about people riding in wilderness. The best sleds those guys have are ZX chassis 600s with 136 tracks, and people who aren't sledders riding them.

But to sum it all up, it's like my momma said when I got in trouble for cussing in grade school, there's an appropriate time and a place for everything. Sleds, chainsaws and dirtbikes don't belong in wilderness. Have some integrity as a sledder, and respect the fact that people want to use our public lands without there being motorized equipment in it. Some people want to enjoy our National Forests on motorized equipment, some want to be in silent solitude in our National Forests. We have ruined their experience in a majority of the public land, since it's non-wilderness. They have ruined our experience on a minority of the land that is designated wilderness. We complain about them trying to take more land from us, and we feel very strongly about it. Realize that they feel just as strongly about their piece of land that doesn't allow motorized access. Every time we poach their land, we are taking it back from being wilderness. Imagine if they could expand wilderness and take land away from us as easily as the bad apples take land from them? We would be outraged.

We each have our ways to enjoy our land and we have a place to do it. We got the good end of the stick, a majority of our National Forest land is non wilderness, let the greenies have what they have. If we don't, they'll backlash and take more land from us. And we won't have a leg to stand on to stop them if we aren't following the rules.

Thank you. Much like newtrout, you come across as a gentleman.

You make very valid points. We try to say (WMC, not all non-motorized advocates) that snowmobile riding is a legitimate use of the Forest, but it needs management as are other uses such as dirt bikes and 4x4s in summer. What that means, as described in our 3 Proposals, is that some terrain is set aside for winter non-motorized. As discussed before, most Wilderness is not accessible unless one goes overnight, or has a snowmobile. So some of the closer-to-the-car terrain should be designated for winter non-motorized, in our view. In the big picture, a relatively small amount of the Forest set aside would be of huge benefit to skiers and snowshoers.

Please think carefully and soberly about how many and whom are the winter non-motorized users of the Forest. Like you folks here, non-motorized users are entitled to use the Forest.

It is tough to get this next idea across, but I have a concern that someday the big Organizations will, as a result of no management of snowmobiles, win a Courts decision that will just hammer or ban snowmobile riding. We work with Organizations, some would have both snowmobiles and non-motorized use on the Forest, and I fear some would be happy to just shut off snowmobile riding. WMC wants snowmobile riding on the Forest, just not to the point that others are excluded who want to ski or snowshoe in accessible, quality, areas that do not have snowmobile traffic. Check out the law and EO and think about how it should be applied to this situation-

http://www.epa.gov/compliance/basics/nepa.html
http://www.archives.gov/federal-register/codification/executive-order/11644.html

edit to add- the NEPA process, a required process for just about anything, has never been done for snowmobile riding on the Wenatchee Forest. We have asked this question directly of USFS officials. They have answered that no, NEPA has not been done. I would invite all here to consider what are the real threats to your sport, beyond us pesky skiers wanting some of our own areas. USFS has never properly processed and designated any off-road snowmobile riding on the Wenatchee Forest, thus it is a hollow shell, not an established and lawful activity at all.

Collaboration between user groups would accomplish the most. In my view, USFS is not treating any side properly in regard to Winter Travel and Winter Recreation. However, USFS officials do encourage collaboration. Simply meeting face-to-face and trying to understand each other could perhaps be helpful to all.

Thank you.

 

[blindman]

master of the game

Thank you. Much like newtrout, you come across as a gentleman.

You make very valid points. We try to say (WMC, not all non-motorized advocates) that snowmobile riding is a legitimate use of the Forest, but it needs management as are other uses such as dirt bikes and 4x4s in summer. What that means, as described in our 3 Proposals, is that some terrain is set aside for winter non-motorized. As discussed before, most Wilderness is not accessible unless one goes overnight, or has a snowmobile. So some of the closer-to-the-car terrain should be designated for winter non-motorized, in our view. In the big picture, a relatively small amount of the Forest set aside would be of huge benefit to skiers and snowshoers.

Please think carefully and soberly about how many and whom are the winter non-motorized users of the Forest. Like you folks here, non-motorized users are entitled to use the Forest.

It is tough to get this next idea across, but I have a concern that someday the big Organizations will, as a result of no management of snowmobiles, win a Courts decision that will just hammer or ban snowmobile riding. We work with Organizations, some would have both snowmobiles and non-motorized use on the Forest, and I fear some would be happy to just shut off snowmobile riding. WMC wants snowmobile riding on the Forest, just not to the point that others are excluded who want to ski or snowshoe in accessible, quality, areas that do not have snowmobile traffic. Check out the law and EO and think about how it should be applied to this situation-

http://www.epa.gov/compliance/basics/nepa.html
http://www.archives.gov/federal-regi...der/11644.html

edit to add- the NEPA process, a required process for just about anything, has never been done for snowmobile riding on the Wenatchee Forest. We have asked this question directly of USFS officials. They have answered that no, NEPA has not been done. I would invite all here to consider what are the real threats to your sport, beyond us pesky skiers wanting some of our own areas. USFS has never properly processed and designated any off-road snowmobile riding on the Wenatchee Forest, thus it is a hollow shell, not an established and lawful activity at all.

Collaboration between user groups would accomplish the most. In my view, USFS is not treating any side properly in regard to Winter Travel and Winter Recreation. However, USFS officials do encourage collaboration. Simply meeting face-to-face and trying to understand each other could perhaps be helpful to all.

Thank you.

The above quote from wmc is nothing more than his continued manipulation to get his way.





My hat is off to you wmc.

The changes you almost singularly, have nearly created are quite remarkable!

I wish you were on our side.

As you have proven so far to be truly...

Master Of The Game

 

[CoyoteGirl]

Nice work Jeff.

X2, THANK YOU!

 

[yammadog]

collaboration. Simply meeting face-to-face and trying to understand each other could perhaps be helpful to all.

Thank you.

I got your collaboration....for both of your faces....

 

[Dogmeat]

Well if the f*cking *******s would stop trying to make every single inch of the rocky mountain west that doesn't have a god damned ski resort on it "wilderness" we wouldn't have this f*cking problem would we? *******s.

Skiiers can f*ck off btw.

 

[yammadog]

Well if the f*cking *******s would stop trying to make every single inch of the rocky mountain west that doesn't have a god damned ski resort on it "wilderness" we wouldn't have this f*cking problem would we? *******s.

Skiiers can f*ck off btw.

use words that don't require asterisks...I can't spell worth beans, so who know's what I'll come up with to decide what names your are calling the retards...

 

[blindman]

exactly

I got your collaboration....for both of your faces....

got to give wmc credit...he has used and abused all that have tried to be reasonable with him....i.e.

meeting face to face with others from the other side

manipulating the forest serving..actually playin the usfs like a fiddle..lmao

finding and spoon feeding certain sympathetic news media..then sending them to the moderates he knew on our side would help his cause..nice wmc

I could go on and on..maybe the hugely unfounded environmental claims...lmao that he would make when frustrated!!

mr. mullins...you are without a doubt...

master of the game.

If I had a big company and you worked for me ..you would be in charge of every new project..

i would make billions

ahhh ...but then again...be careful what you wish for...

karma can be a bitch

 

[tek9tim]

Well, the lack of NEPA processing for snowmobiling is a little odd. However, most of the issues that hang up a NEPA document are null when it comes to snowmobiling. Plants- no. Mullosks- no. Erosion/hydrology- no. Fisheries- no. Archeology- no. Wildlife- only winter active species, and only in specific (though not even fully known) locations are there T&E species. If you're gonna cut sledding out in certain areas because of lynx and wolverine, you better be sure they're there first.

As to area used by sleds vs non-motorized on the Wenatchee River district (I'll use there as an example, it's the area I've explored the most), there are a lot of areas where there is very little use period, that could be used by non-motorized users. No matter how you cut it, in order to get good backcountry skiing on the Wenatchee River district, you either need a sled or plan on spending the night. I'm not sure what you're looking for. Easy backcountry access by skis alone in the north central cascades isn't gonna happen.

Do share if you have specific areas you would like to see closed off in the greater Wenatchee valley, I can't think of many off hand that don't either have serious issues (residences up the Icicle Valley that use sleds in the winter to get there), or are used heavily by snowmobilers (Chiwawa), or are hardly even used by sleds (middle Chumstick). There would be great skiing in the middle Chumstick. Never seen a single skier there, only a few sleds. There's one area for sure that could be used now without conflict, but it isn't. Example of the homework I spoke of before.

As to snowshoeing, how many hiking trails are on the forest? Go out and get some. Not many sleds on those trails... Nason Ridge anybody?

I guess what gets my knickers in a twist with cutting out areas of the forest to snowmobiling (other than wilderness) is that all the other forests I've lived in have had areas that were closed off to motorized use seasonally (most often late fall-winter) to protect wildlife (primarialy elk) habitat. I can get behind that, and a fair number of sledders hunt, so not disturbing the elk population is okay with them. The Wenatchee River, Entiat, and Chelan districts don't have any of that, nor do they really have any ground that would qualify as well as the ground I've seen closed off on other forests.

Any which way, I'd say that I'd have to see a lot more snowmobile tracks in the front country before I would say it's necessary to start closing off areas. The areas are open and available to both skiers and sledders now, the skiers don't use them, and the sledders hardly do, which makes it pretty awesome for the few of us that know the land. It is still perfectly useable for skiers.

 

[Kordero]

Exactly right Tim. Which is why is so confusing why WMC is doing what it is - pushing for additional wilderness on the southern border of the Alpine Lakes Wilderness. At first he wanted to make sure no sleds were going into the current Wilderness. Now the WMC m.o. has changed to ADD MORE WILDERNESS.

Maybe the current Wilderness line should be re-drawn to the Ingalls Creek Basin not at the crest. It would keep sledders at the to the south of the Mt.Stuart crest and they'd all know you can only ride to the south. Yes, REMOVE THE BUFFER!!

The current southern border follows ridge lines. Might as well make it easy to discern by following a creek on a valley floor. There, how do you like that? Yes, I'll say it again, remove a portion of the Wilderness.

 

[yammadog]

Yes, I'll say it again, remove a portion of the Wilderness.

one thing that was answered directly by the FS at the Cle Elum meeting is that they have no option but to recommend NEW wilderness. they have NO mandate or option to recommend moving the boundary in, only out.

Although they are finding that the migration of wildlife shows that the preserve mentality is not working so they can't move the areas around to protect the migration patterns. ONLY increase the areas.

The only way they will look at the option of reducing wilderness, or adjusting boundary in for certain areas, is if it trickles down from congress in to the agencies that direct the FS on how to view wilderness. Even thought the "experts" are in the FS and would be the one's that have the "educated" opinion on what should be done with regard to moving those boundaries. again, their only option/mandate is to look at increased wilderness. they only get or are mandated to do half the job.

 

[Kordero]

Which is why the current boundary is - acceptable -. The current line was presumable drawn to both protect the Ingalls Creek watershed and also provide a buffer to the Enchantments portion of the Alpine Lakes Wilderness. So, Ingalls Crk dumps down in to the what? Oh yeah, right down next to Hwy 97 which it flows alongside for 20 some-odd miles til it meets the Wenatchee River.

When it comes down to it I just don't understand what is being accomplished by adding Wilderness to the southern border.