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Snow Bike Theory

My observations you may want to consider...
We all scream for more horsepower, but how much is enough?
Should we take it to the point where sleds have been a number of times, that point of insanity where we have great big tracks to float great big chassis to handle great big horsepower from great big engine with a great big gas tank to give it some range. Meanwhile the operator dimension stays the same and has one simple desire...to be propelled over the surface with reasonable speed, range and effort.
I hear a lot of discussion about the need for manufacturers to build us a purpose-built snowbike...isn't that defeating the whole purpose of this unique snow vehicle...to be able to adaptably utilize an already expensive investment in all seasons?
I, for one, believe that the future needs to include higher efficiency (meaning more power to the ground), much lighter weight and increased durability to equal that of a dirt bike.
I believe that in the near future it will be possible for a person to be satisfied with a 250 cc 4-stroke (something that an average person would ride in the mountains in the summer) with a track conversion kit. Of course it will never go straight up a hill like a snowmobile, but I can envision a track kit that does not significantly add to the weight of a bike, and is low enough to the snow to be handled by the shorter in stature.
One last note, why are we running snowmobile-strength tracks on snowbikes? Could it be that this is where our efficiency and weight problems could be solved? I think so...:)
If we can achieve these goals, I think we can all agree that more people will be drawn to the sport of motorized winter recreation.
 
With appropriate decrease in weight one migt be able to get away with a 450 for power and be happy. A 250F will just not be enough. If you have to wring it out all day long reliability will just not be there. The 450s do a fine job anything less with a full size dude like me is pushing it. The new tracks are a huge step ahead as you mentioned and the Yeti is pushing the envelope when it comes to light weight. Now the question is who can afford the 10000 dollar conversion kit + the bike. This gets to the point where you could buy a sled and dirtbike and never need to change over making the 2 season savings argument pointless.
 
We all wan't more. Its the way of mankind!

Yes the conversion thing is cool, but the reality is those who build them hardcore for full on max enjoyment snowbikes tend to stay converted all year, aka dedicated snowbikes. Yes a generic MX bike is fun with minimal modding, but to realize the true potential and enjoyment mods are required. Intake, shrouding, heaters, etc. This is where I see the purpose built one ski taking off. The snowhawk idea was there, just the market wasn't ready.

Everything is headed in the right direction. New lighter better track from TS with curves for better handling, better suspension lighter drive system. Now with Polaris backing im sure that will not be slowing down!

Yeti is pushing the envelope on high dollar max performance. Will they grow and sell items as fast as TS, IMO, NO. But it will push the industry in that direction. All competition is good right now. It keeps everyone on their toes and keeps MFG's all pushing that much harder to be on top!
 
No flatlander here, I have been riding the toughest terrain Idaho has since I was 4. I traded my 300 horse turbo Nytro for a snowbike for the reasons stated above.
I think my point is being lost, much like the obvious solution to a problem usually is
The problem: Weight and inefficiency.
The solution: Less weight and higher efficiency.

Until I can go up to a snowbike lifted off the ground and roll the track over without effort like can be done to the rear wheel on a motorcycle, I will never say we have come as far as possible.
Common sense tells me that a ski should weigh less than a tire and a brake, so there should be weight loss on the front end. How about a thin-skinned ski with integrated carbon fiber framework? Also, lower ride height would allow the spindle adaptor to be much lighter.
Common sense also tells me that we are running far too heavy tracks, in both ply and thickness, for the low horsepower a bike has. What if the track was purpose built for the application instead of just retrofitted from a snowmobile? I am thinking a thin (3/16 inch or less) Kevlar or steel ply rubber coated endless gripper-style conveyor belting with hollowed cross-section composite paddles riveted to it, 20 lbs max weight. Look at a snowcat track for an example. How much would they weigh if constructed like a snowmobile track?
Next, drive it so that horsepower-robbing tension is not needed to keep the drive cogs engaged...a pinched drive mechanism would do this task nicely.

These areas are where I think the big four could greatly improve the design better than Timbersled or Yeti simply because they have the financial strength and industrial connections to make it possible.

Fact is, the sport of snowmobiling has reached astronomical heights in terms of pricing and the needed equipment to participate. If you don't agree, then please explain why it is in such decline....
Do a search and I'll bet you see that the vast majority of offroad public-land use motorcycles are 300 cc and less. This means that we must make snowbike conversions work on these bikes or else we are once again requiring unwarranted investment from would-be participants to enter the sport. History says this dosent work.
We, as motorized winter sports enthusiasts, desperately need new concepts like snowbikes to facilitate a last-ditch effort to regain participation in our sport before it is too late and the sport is seen for what it has actually become, an elite dinosaur. How much longer do you think the big four will continue investing in snowmobile technology when new sled sales are so low? I guarantee that right now it dosent pencil out and snowmobiles are soon to be placed on the financial chopping block in the corporate back yard.
Bottom line, we have got to make this work or our grandchildren will be riding chairlifts for their big horsepower winter thrill.
 
No flatlander here, I have been riding the toughest terrain Idaho has since I was 4. I traded my 300 horse turbo Nytro for a snowbike for the reasons stated above.
I think my point is being lost, much like the obvious solution to a problem usually is
The problem: Weight and inefficiency.
The solution: Less weight and higher efficiency.

Until I can go up to a snowbike lifted off the ground and roll the track over without effort like can be done to the rear wheel on a motorcycle, I will never say we have come as far as possible.
Common sense tells me that a ski should weigh less than a tire and a brake, so there should be weight loss on the front end. How about a thin-skinned ski with integrated carbon fiber framework? Also, lower ride height would allow the spindle adaptor to be much lighter.
Common sense also tells me that we are running far too heavy tracks, in both ply and thickness, for the low horsepower a bike has. What if the track was purpose built for the application instead of just retrofitted from a snowmobile? I am thinking a thin (3/16 inch or less) Kevlar or steel ply rubber coated endless gripper-style conveyor belting with hollowed cross-section composite paddles riveted to it, 20 lbs max weight. Look at a snowcat track for an example. How much would they weigh if constructed like a snowmobile track?
Next, drive it so that horsepower-robbing tension is not needed to keep the drive cogs engaged...a pinched drive mechanism would do this task nicely.

These areas are where I think the big four could greatly improve the design better than Timbersled or Yeti simply because they have the financial strength and industrial connections to make it possible.

Fact is, the sport of snowmobiling has reached astronomical heights in terms of pricing and the needed equipment to participate. If you don't agree, then please explain why it is in such decline....
Do a search and I'll bet you see that the vast majority of offroad public-land use motorcycles are 300 cc and less. This means that we must make snowbike conversions work on these bikes or else we are once again requiring unwarranted investment from would-be participants to enter the sport. History says this dosent work.
We, as motorized winter sports enthusiasts, desperately need new concepts like snowbikes to facilitate a last-ditch effort to regain participation in our sport before it is too late and the sport is seen for what it has actually become, an elite dinosaur. How much longer do you think the big four will continue investing in snowmobile technology when new sled sales are so low? I guarantee that right now it dosent pencil out and snowmobiles are soon to be placed on the financial chopping block in the corporate back yard.
Bottom line, we have got to make this work or our grandchildren will be riding chairlifts for their big horsepower winter thrill.
So many of the things your suggesting are already in the works or being implimented.

If its so obvious and easy the direction we need to be headed where is your prototype?

All this stuff takes a lot of time and many hours to test each concept. Every year they get better. C3 is pushing the higher $$ aspect and making a lot of the parts lighter but then people complain about cost. The technologies are not free.

Also, got to remember, these companies are all in the business of making money. Yes that goes hand in hand with development and growing the sport. But remember everyone has bills to pay, so as much as they would love to dump every penny into R&D and new parts and making stuff better, got to sell kits to pay for R&D.
 
Simple question , why are they putting a track on a bike kit that is no different than one put on a manufactured turbo sled that is pushing 200 ponies .

Why is the heel of the ski so long ? If anything it hinders the bike not to mention the chatter that feeds back threw the bars .

The bike kits can't evolve fast enough for me maybe it's because they are a kit . Bling only goes so far and than reality sets in .

This track is designed with a fiber material added and is as extremely durable , to bad it does not come in a 153 . One would think that a single ply would be more than satisfactory on a bike kit .

IMG_20140201_121056_041 (450x800).jpg
 
Simple question , why are they putting a track on a bike kit that is no different than one put on a manufactured turbo sled that is pushing 200 ponies . EXACTLY MY POINT! There is efficiency left on the table.
FYI: I have been working on a prototype drive track for years, just not ready to buck the trend just yet. I will throw out some hints, it is a skeleton track that dosent use hyfax and can be run indefinitely in the dirt as well. Anyone say spring riding with 5 miles of dirt...no problem!
 
I hear you but I can ride all day on 2-3 gal of gas and my bike hauls @ss! How much more efficient do I want it to be? Cost benefit ratio....
I agree that sales volume could increase a lot if the track kits worked well on smaller bikes, but a 250F is the same bike as a 450 w less ponies so I don't think it's keeping want to be Sno bikers from getting one. Not too much $ to trade up to an eq 450 but it would cost TS or someone ALOt to advance the entire over the snow industry by the type of efficiency you are asking to gain.
People riding $1500 old middle of the road bikes aren't going to spend 3-4x their bikes worth on a snow kit.
Lighter track would be cool though but then people would bitch when they ripped on rocks and trees.

Oh and most people running high $ toys want the fastest one.
 
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Speaking of which , is there any Dyno information to the ground on these kits , one would think the thumpers would fare better than the smokers .
 
No, no, and no.

I am the slowest rider I know, and I want more power, better floatation, and less mechanical hassles than a 250/450 motorcycle on a timbersled LT.
 
Next, drive it so that horsepower-robbing tension is not needed to keep the drive cogs engaged...a pinched drive mechanism would do this task nicely.


Fact is, the sport of snowmobiling has reached astronomical heights in terms of pricing and the needed equipment to participate. If you don't agree, then please explain why it is in such decline....


First, tension on the track is not creating the friction problem. The Polaris PRO runs a VERY tight track compared to the others yet is arguably more efficient in transferring its power. There is a discussion on this site that more fully explains why loose is not better.

Snowmobiles are CHEAPER than snow bikes if you compare the top models bought new. New sleds are $10-12k, new snow bikes are $15k+. The "decline" you speak of is questionable in my mind also. Again the Polaris Pro RMK has been the best selling snowmobile period, for a few years now. The mtn market is typically 30% of sled sales but the Pro has grabbed a larger market share for mtn sleds than has ever been done before.

I see snow bikes as just something different. There are several reasons why they will never replace sleds, sheer power probably being the biggest. Then there are many of us who have tried to ride bikes but have just never been comfortable on them. Sleds suffer much less from this because you do not need much balance to start out. I also see durability problems with dirt bikes on the snow, expensive 4 stroke rebuilds are documented on these forums.

You are going to have a hard time convincing even the dirt bike faithful that a 250 four stroke is going to replace a 160 hp two stroke 800 when it comes to fun. Then you have the sleds dipping under 400 lbs with minimal mods which is down within 100 lbs of the bikes and the gap is closing.

The bikes are neat but a novelty that I predict will go the same way as the Hawk.
 
First, tension on the track is not creating the friction problem. The Polaris PRO runs a VERY tight track compared to the others yet is arguably more efficient in transferring its power. There is a discussion on this site that more fully explains why loose is not better.

Snowmobiles are CHEAPER than snow bikes if you compare the top models bought new. New sleds are $10-12k, new snow bikes are $15k+. The "decline" you speak of is questionable in my mind also. Again the Polaris Pro RMK has been the best selling snowmobile period, for a few years now. The mtn market is typically 30% of sled sales but the Pro has grabbed a larger market share for mtn sleds than has ever been done before.

I see snow bikes as just something different. There are several reasons why they will never replace sleds, sheer power probably being the biggest. Then there are many of us who have tried to ride bikes but have just never been comfortable on them. Sleds suffer much less from this because you do not need much balance to start out. I also see durability problems with dirt bikes on the snow, expensive 4 stroke rebuilds are documented on these forums.

You are going to have a hard time convincing even the dirt bike faithful that a 250 four stroke is going to replace a 160 hp two stroke 800 when it comes to fun. Then you have the sleds dipping under 400 lbs with minimal mods which is down within 100 lbs of the bikes and the gap is closing.

The bikes are neat but a novelty that I predict will go the same way as the Hawk.

All other arguments aside, there is absolutely no way snowbikes are going away. Way too much fun and worth all the little tweaks and quirks. I'm pretty certain there were never as many snowhawks riding around as there are snowbikes, and the number is growing every year. I'll have one until I'm literally too old to get on it, then maybe I'll get a sled again!
 
First, tension on the track is not creating the friction problem. The Polaris PRO runs a VERY tight track compared to the others yet is arguably more efficient in transferring its power. There is a discussion on this site that more fully explains why loose is not better.

(I said "pinch" drive , meaning that track tension, whether high or low, has little to do with the equation of which you speak. A pinch drive uses bias pressure on both sides of the track to pull it through the gap and is not dependent on the tension of the track for drive cog engagement.)

Snowmobiles are CHEAPER than snow bikes if you compare the top models bought new. New sleds are $10-12k, new snow bikes are $15k+.

(Try riding your sled on dirt and tell me that your math is accurate...I see it as the new bike for summer is $8-10,000 and the bike for winter costs $6000.)

I see snow bikes as just something different. There are several reasons why they will never replace sleds, sheer power probably being the biggest.

(Yes, we can tell that you havn't put enough seat time on a bike to have an opinion. Which is more important on the mountain, horsepower or weight?)

Then there are many of us who have tried to ride bikes but have just never been comfortable on them. Sleds suffer much less from this because you do not need much balance to start out.

(What? On a flat hard road maybe, sleds take more balance to ride than a bike by far, in addition to strength)

I also see durability problems with dirt bikes on the snow, expensive 4 stroke rebuilds are documented on these forums.

(Name them, I have had zero and I ride a turbo KTM 500 running 13 lbs boost and I don't ride dainty)

You are going to have a hard time convincing even the dirt bike faithful that a 250 four stroke is going to replace a 160 hp two stroke 800 when it comes to fun.

(Define "Fun", if you mean sweating your butt off all day to try and get where I idled my bike, then okay, you can have it)

Then you have the sleds dipping under 400 lbs with minimal mods which is down within 100 lbs of the bikes and the gap is closing.

(Your cherished Polaris Pro, one of which I have ridden the engine out of, is weighed at the Polaris factory without shock oil, brake fluid, or even grease in the bearings, giving a whole new meaning to "dry" weight. My snowbike full of fuel weighs 315 and has over 100 horse on cheap av gas. I want to see your sub-400 lb sled hanging on a scale full of fluids)

The bikes are neat but a novelty that I predict will go the same way as the Hawk.

You know, I used to have the exact same opinion as you, until I actually tried one. Five minutes into the first ride I knew I was full of it, that my opinions about snowbikes were not based on fact, but rather the fear that I had spent money in the wrong direction. If you are right and I am wrong, then why did Polaris just purchase Timbersled...c'mon, we all know it wasn't just for the cool company logo.:)
 
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First, tension on the track is not creating the friction problem. The Polaris PRO runs a VERY tight track compared to the others yet is arguably more efficient in transferring its power. There is a discussion on this site that more fully explains why loose is not better.

Snowmobiles are CHEAPER than snow bikes if you compare the top models bought new. New sleds are $10-12k, new snow bikes are $15k+. The "decline" you speak of is questionable in my mind also. Again the Polaris Pro RMK has been the best selling snowmobile period, for a few years now. The mtn market is typically 30% of sled sales but the Pro has grabbed a larger market share for mtn sleds than has ever been done before.

I see snow bikes as just something different. There are several reasons why they will never replace sleds, sheer power probably being the biggest. Then there are many of us who have tried to ride bikes but have just never been comfortable on them. Sleds suffer much less from this because you do not need much balance to start out. I also see durability problems with dirt bikes on the snow, expensive 4 stroke rebuilds are documented on these forums.

You are going to have a hard time convincing even the dirt bike faithful that a 250 four stroke is going to replace a 160 hp two stroke 800 when it comes to fun. Then you have the sleds dipping under 400 lbs with minimal mods which is down within 100 lbs of the bikes and the gap is closing.

The bikes are neat but a novelty that I predict will go the same way as the Hawk.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

(deep breath)

AHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Oh God, thank you. I needed a good one today.... phew.... ahaha.... I think I just peed my pants a little.
 
You forgot one .......
The bikes are neat but a novelty that I predict will go the same way as the Hawk.

Novelty ?! The Snow Hawk is kind of like a CMX-X , an expensive turn key machine rarely seen in some parts .

Since they are so rare we generally ride with sleds but the only real down fall is that we are frequently stopping because they need to recoup .

Annually we head up to Artic Man a week early for the riding and I did see more bike kits this year than previous years , pretty obvious they are growing . Funny thing is the only one I seen out riding didn't want to play with another one ski . Talked to a newbie in the lot that had a brand new 450 , rapped , LT kit , turbo, rekluse and was just giddy with joy , beautiful set up .

Innovator , your track idea makes sense . Belted tracks in a way are extremely expensive and have a better purpose these days on a skid steer , agriculture and commercial equipment ............ you know ....... slow moving equipment .

The idea of replacing a bad link in a track would make a lot more sense that throwing the whole thing away .
 
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