Small Oxygen Cylinder? - Avy Survival

[gmustangt]

http://www.tri-medinc.com/TM/page10.html

Im curious if anyone has or does run some sort of small oxygen tank in there pack, like the ones above typically used for seniors (just the tank not the carrying bag). To give you oxygen if ever needed when buried.

Just rig up the breather piece to come into your helmet near your mouth somehow.

I already have an avy pack, and ive heard the avalung isnt the most snowmobiler friendly device, so wondering if a small oxygen tank is a good idea.

AST courses aside for the purpose of this discussion.


Thoughts?

 

[Woodsrider]

You would have to have the valve open before you got buried. Once buried you will not be able to move. The best thing anyone can do is enroll in a avalanche training class. Safety equipment is great but is only useful after the fact, best to be trained and never use safety gear.

 

[gmustangt]

You would have to have the valve open before you got buried. Once buried you will not be able to move. The best thing anyone can do is enroll in a avalanche training class. Safety equipment is great but is only useful after the fact, best to be trained and never use safety gear.

Yes i agree, AST courses aside. i forgot to mention the valve part, it would have to be setup so it is open and air only comes in when you inhale.

 

[FatDogX]

Yes i agree, AST courses aside. i forgot to mention the valve part, it would have to be setup the same way as a scuba tank is. with a regualtor.

Interesting concept. With a setup like a scuba tank you typically end up with a larger valve on top of the tank and weight may be an issue. With smaller bottles like scuba "bail out" or "pony bottles" only provide a short amount of air. Next you would have to rig up some kind of mouth piece and regulator that would have to be in your helmet and NOT freeze up. But who knows, you may be onto something, I'm no engineer.

 

[polaris dude]

I've considered bringing a small oxygen tank just for the ol' man that way when hes stuck I can hopefully keep him from having a heart attack up at elevation

 

[gmustangt]

Interesting concept. With a setup like a scuba tank you typically end up with a larger valve on top of the tank and weight may be an issue. With smaller bottles like scuba "bail out" or "pony bottles" only provide a short amount of air. Next you would have to rig up some kind of mouth piece and regulator that would have to be in your helmet and NOT freeze up. But who knows, you may be onto something, I'm no engineer.

Well ya thats just it, my heads not completely wrapped around it 100% either... i dont know the details of how it would work ie; the kind of valve required to allow air flow when you breathe in...

But if you have a source of oxygen, survival is increase. Im not talking about a scuba tank size tank, just something small that can fit in your pack and provide you a source of air if ever need be.

Like somesort of mouth piece used on camelpacks you see on cyclists, mount it inside your helmet close to your mouth so all it take is 1/2 second to get it on your mouth.

 

[gmustangt]

well ever since this idea popped in to my head, i keep pursuing it. (thanks google).

I came across this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4aSkd2Dhns , this is a demand valve which i believe is what would be required for this application.

Simply put a demand valve, suplies oxygen when its demanded. So as soon as there is inhaling/sucking the valve open providing a flow of oxygen.

 

[turbolover]

mountain Climbers

Don't climbers use something like this to supplement their oxygen supply when climbing?
I've seen shows on climbers on everest that use some little Oxygen bottles for such a thing.
I believe that it is pure O2 whereas a scuba tank is just compressed air.

 

[turbolover]

mountain Climbers

Don't climbers use something like this to supplement their oxygen supply when climbing?
I've seen shows on climbers on everest that use some little Oxygen bottles for such a thing.
I believe that it is pure O2 whereas a scuba tank is just compressed air.

 

[gmustangt]

http://www.medicalsearch.com.au/Products/EMT-Ventilator-73647

http://www.carnetmedical.com/Products/ProductSearch.aspx?searchGroupId=15

http://www.lifemedicalsupplier.com/resuscitation-equipment-demand-valves-c-226_143.html - $250-300?

Something like this mounted inside your helmet with a line running to an oxygen/compressed air supply in your bag...
Im just trying to figur eout the price of these things

 

[FatDogX]

Well ya thats just it, my heads not completely wrapped around it 100% either... i dont know the details of how it would work ie; the kind of valve required to allow air flow when you breathe in...

But if you have a source of oxygen, survival is increase. Im not talking about a scuba tank size tank, just something small that can fit in your pack and provide you a source of air if ever need be.

Like somesort of mouth piece used on camelpacks you see on cyclists, mount it inside your helmet close to your mouth so all it take is 1/2 second to get it on your mouth.

It is an interesting topic, the pony bottles and bail out rigs are small scuba tanks that would fit into a backpack but they would only provide minutes of air. But I guess a minute or two of extra air is better then NONE!!

 

[Matte Murder]

I have been thinking about doing something similar(small ox bottle) not for avy survival but for a shot of oxygen at high altitude. At the Dan Adam clinic last year we did a simulated rescue. At the end of it we hiked back up to our sleds in deep snow. Everyone was shot by the time we got to the top of the hill. Dan offered me a shot of a small oxygen container he had in his pocket. Instant recovery. The bottle he had was really expensive and not refillable so I have been working on a cheaper solution. Let me know what you come up with. I have some small bottles I bought to use in HAHO parachute jumps. They are a little heavier than I want for sledding. Let me know what you come up with. Also, medical grade oxygen is tightly controlled and you need a prescription to get it. Have you thought about that?

 

[Matte Murder]

You can buy the avalung system as a stand alone unit. This would allow you to breathe buried and you wouldn't need an oxygen bottle. You would have to rig it so the mouth piece was attached inside your helmet so you could get it in your mouth without the use of your hands. Something I have thought about too. I am now wearing an avy bag and I don't believe anyone has been buried while wearing a bag in a survivable avalanche so not sure if it's worth the time or effort to rig one up.

 

[akstormin]

Interesting topic, I like discussions where people think outside the box. It seems to me that the avalung approaches this problem from another angle. I've been told that there is plenty of oxygen in the snow to sustain life, the problem is that as you exhale you melt the snow in the immediate area of your mouth. Eventually creating an ice layer which of course prevents you from getting any more O2 from the snow and then the end is very near. The avalung prevents or at least delays this ice layer from forming allowing you access to more O2. Carrying bottled O2 would in theory get the same results provided you have a way to access the O2 and that you have enough of it. Those small bottles don't provide a lot of O2 especially if you have it on all the time. If there were a way to activate it, like attached to the rip cord on your avy bag, now you have something that may be useful. Still some delivery and weight issues to solve but maybe you're on to something.

 

[gmustangt]

Interesting topic, I like discussions where people think outside the box. It seems to me that the avalung approaches this problem from another angle. I've been told that there is plenty of oxygen in the snow to sustain life, the problem is that as you exhale you melt the snow in the immediate area of your mouth. Eventually creating an ice layer which of course prevents you from getting any more O2 from the snow and then the end is very near. The avalung prevents or at least delays this ice layer from forming allowing you access to more O2. Carrying bottled O2 would in theory get the same results provided you have a way to access the O2 and that you have enough of it. Those small bottles don't provide a lot of O2 especially if you have it on all the time. If there were a way to activate it, like attached to the rip cord on your avy bag, now you have something that may be useful. Still some delivery and weight issues to solve but maybe you're on to something.

Yes this is were the demand valve would come in as i see, the demand valve has the tank open all the time, but air is only coming out of the tank once it is in your mouth and inhaling/sucking.

So if you had a high psi tank of compressed or, you may be able to have a good supply of air.

Maybe will be seeing some sort of system from the major avy gear companies

 

[West]

Avy Bags

I have always wondered why the avy packs dont auto deflate after a period of time. Too bad they dont stay inflated for 5 minutes, then bleed off - if you were burried you now have air and space to move.

 

[Jeff C]

A couple of issues here.......

1. YOu have to remember that this device would need to be designed to be used without the aid of your hands to trigger it. YOur hands are encased in concrete and cannot move.

2. Air would need to be used. 100% oxygen is very dangerous. A spark from static electricity will instantly start an explosive fire. (Read up on the NASA Gemini capsule fire back in the 60's, that was fueled by 100% oxygen and a spark)

Most people do not realize this. Oxygen bottles are just that 100% oxygen. Compressed air bottles are air which is 21% oxygen.

I just happen to have a little knowledge about this topic from my days technical scuba diving on shipwrecks where we used 100% oxygen to help slough off built up nitrogen when decompressing from a deep dive.

The care and use of these cylinders and regulators is completely different than when dealing with just plain air......

 

[gmustangt]

A couple of issues here.......

1. YOu have to remember that this device would need to be designed to be used without the aid of your hands to trigger it. YOur hands are encased in concrete and cannot move.

2. Air would need to be used. 100% oxygen is very dangerous. A spark from static electricity will instantly start an explosive fire. (Read up on the NASA Gemini capsule fire back in the 60's, that was fueled by 100% oxygen and a spark)

Most people do not realize this. Oxygen bottles are just that 100% oxygen. Compressed air bottles are air which is 21% oxygen.

I just happen to have a little knowledge about this topic from my days technical scuba diving on shipwrecks where we used 100% oxygen to help slough off built up nitrogen when decompressing from a deep dive.

The care and use of these cylinders and regulators is completely different than when dealing with just plain air......

1. I see the demand valve allowing you to have the bottle open at all times, and air will only flow when you are inhaling on the mouth piece, have the mouth piece velcroed in on the inside of your helmet, there fore only taking 1/2 second to get it in your mouth.

2. Yes agreed it needs to be compressed air, i originally said oxygen then drifted towards compressed air.

Anyone have any experience with a demand valve? maybe im not understanding it right.

 

[Matte Murder]

I think you are way over stating how dangerous oxygen is. There are millions of people on oxygen and I have never heard of an accident that hurt anyone. Cancer patients, emphysema and asthma sufferers etc all use oxygen. You see people smoking on oxygen(not smart but cancer doesn't cure smoking). Also, oxygen is not flammable itself, it just helps everything else burn better faster stronger.
The benefit of using oxygen is that a small cylinder would last you way longer. You aren't going to get much time if you are just breathing air from a reasonably small cylinder. You also would NOT have to have the hose in your mouth, just bleeding a small amount of oxygen into your helmet near your mouth would be good enough. The valve thing would have to be sorted out. Maybe some kind of rip cord like the one that triggers you avy bag. I don't have the answer for that...

 

[allpowersports]

Dräger

Check out http://www.draeger.com they could have some stuff that could be used