Should I buy a M1100 Turbo?

[JB-AK]

Hi -
I've been out of the snowmobile game for a LONG time. I haven't owned a sled since the late 90's. My last one was a Jag440 that was... not so great. But it's been 20 years and a lot has changed. Just a reference for how ignorant I am. Be kind. lol.

I am pretty mechanically inclined. Lots of motorsports, just not snowmobiles.

So here's my situation and questions I'd love to have some advice on: I'm in Alaska for probably 1-3 years for work. I really want to do some backcountry skiing and exploring and I need a ride to the deeper mountains. I don't need to climb the biggest chutes or do the most extreme sledding. But I do want to be able to access the backcountry, usually with 2 riders, and have something that pulls a skier well on a rope and/or can ride 2 up "rodeo style" - meaning both riders stand one each board facing each other and one runs the throttle while the other does the brakes and shuttle skiiers up as far as we can go. Best scenarios are riding up a big ridgeline and then dropping the skier at the top and one person riding the sled back down. But this all ideally happens in deep powder where the utility sleds may not work so great. And I think a mountain sled will be better because I can ride it up solo for a few laps to make a nice track on the up-hill route before going up with a second rider.

I'm looking at a local sled for sale and I could use some help on whether I should consider it and how to do a proper inspection before buying. It's a 2012 M1100 turbo ltd 162. All stock. About 2500 miles.

What I'm scared of is whether it'll be reliable to go out and back to semi-remote places and whether it'll cost a fortune to keep running. It seems like this era of M1100 had major belt problems. But I don't know if this is all of them, some of them, or a few very problematic ones. And I don't know what it'll take to fix now because they're old enough a lot of the aftermarket options don't seem to be supported anymore. I've read a lot and can't really find any definitive solution. Just a ton of threads about a bunch of attempts that sort of helped with the issues of belt life. The Yamaha comparable sleds seem to mostly be complaints about the skis and mostly other trivial things, but based on just internet searching they seem to be a lot more reliable. They're also few and far between up here used. I do really love the idea of a 4 stroke for the lower end power for slower towing and for the less stinky exhaust.

Will running it the way I'm thinking about - towing and pulling a lot, not a ton of miles, be really hard on the belts? Is this a bad sled for my goals? And what tips would you have for me to go look at it? It's not snowy enough to go test ride it. So I'm not really sure how to even do any meaningful evaluation other than just looking at if it's clean and not visibly broken.

My only other question is - if I do buy this sled, will it handle a 174" track well? I was thinking maybe reduce the gearing a bit via a smaller driver set (if that exists) and swapping to a 174 track for more float/traction. In my perfect world there would be something with a 174x25x3 track that would ride like a tank and everyone would hate, but it would be perfect for a 2-up utility sled for deeper powder.


As an aside - I'm also sort of considering an ATV with backcountry tracks. My biggest issue there is that they're pretty expensive to setup and it's hard to get anything up here in AK unless I can find it used already here. Shipping is a PITA and $$ for anything big or heavy. And they weight a lot more than I thought - most ATV tracks are 400+lbs, just for the tracks, and then you add another 1000lb ATV and it's a tank in the deeper snow. Flop one on it's side in powder and then what? And they're probably not very good at sidehills or anything other than mostly level terrain. I've also looked at ARGOs and other mini snow-cat options. I just keep coming back to a snowmobile being the best option for me.

I'd love to go buy this sled, just don't want to end up spending most of my time wrenching on it and not out playing or worse ending up with a sled that eats belts that I can't fix and just mothball.

Thanks for any help or pointers you can give me!

 

[boondocker97]

I haven't owned one, but know one person that had a 2012, a couple people that had 2013s, and one that had a 2014. They are very heavy and you'll struggle to get one unstuck without help. 2-4 additional people is ideal. If you roll it over to get unstuck it would dump oil out the crankcase vent onto the air filter and then didn't want to run so a "roll over valve" is a must.

The turbos are 180hp machines stock so plenty of power to turn a larger track. The issue is the drivetrain wasn't up to the task. Especially when people figured out they could crank them up to 240hp with just an ECU tune. Clutches, jack shafts, and chain cases were casualties. The guy with the 2012 didn't have too many belt problems (got a good one I think in that regard). The 2013 guys did, but they were running more power and one guy was over 300lb. He was lucky to get over 100 miles/belt. Two people on the machine at once would put you in that category. The root cause of a lot of the belt issues was found by Cat to be the clutch vendors were machining them and then heat treating them and warping the sheaves. Bushings that got gummy once hot were a problem. Factory gearing was also too high. By 2014 there were revised clutches and lower gearing spec'ed. Some 2012s and 2013s got updates if they had issues. They have a lot of underhood heat that doesn't help the belts live either. The friend with the 2014 didn't have belt issues.

Jack shafts were updated for 2015. One friend with a 2013 exploded a chain case. We found issues brewing in the 2014 chain case when we were changing out a track and ended up replacing the chain and gears.

With 2500 miles on the one you are looking at I'd be planning on two new clutches, updated jack shaft and bearings, and heavy duty chain and gears in the chain case to make it really reliable. If you plan on changing the track you'll have to be into the chain case anyway so makes that not so bad to do.

 

[JB-AK]

I haven't owned one, but know one person that had a 2012, a couple people that had 2013s, and one that had a 2014. They are very heavy and you'll struggle to get one unstuck without help. 2-4 additional people is ideal. If you roll it over to get unstuck it would dump oil out the crankcase vent onto the air filter and then didn't want to run so a "roll over valve" is a must.

The turbos are 180hp machines stock so plenty of power to turn a larger track. The issue is the drivetrain wasn't up to the task. Especially when people figured out they could crank them up to 240hp with just an ECU tune. Clutches, jack shafts, and chain cases were casualties. The guy with the 2012 didn't have too many belt problems (got a good one I think in that regard). The 2013 guys did, but they were running more power and one guy was over 300lb. He was lucky to get over 100 miles/belt. Two people on the machine at once would put you in that category. The root cause of a lot of the belt issues was found by Cat to be the clutch vendors were machining them and then heat treating them and warping the sheaves. Bushings that got gummy once hot were a problem. Factory gearing was also too high. By 2014 there were revised clutches and lower gearing spec'ed. Some 2012s and 2013s got updates if they had issues. They have a lot of underhood heat that doesn't help the belts live either. The friend with the 2014 didn't have belt issues.

Jack shafts were updated for 2015. One friend with a 2013 exploded a chain case. We found issues brewing in the 2014 chain case when we were changing out a track and ended up replacing the chain and gears.

With 2500 miles on the one you are looking at I'd be planning on two new clutches, updated jack shaft and bearings, and heavy duty chain and gears in the chain case to make it really reliable. If you plan on changing the track you'll have to be into the chain case anyway so makes that not so bad to do.

Thank you!

I'm thinking this might not be the right choice for me.

Seems like I'd potentially be money and headache ahead to spend a few thousand more and get a comparable Yamaha. Or see if I can find a M8 that doesn't have a ton of miles on it. There's just not a lot around for sale. The one Nytro near me is $6500 for a non-turbo 2010 nytro with 2500 miles. If it were a factory turbo - sure. N/A - it's probably bulletproof, heavy, and underpowered. I might get the same outcome with the M1100t if I just put something as simple as throttle limiter on it to 80% and just never push it very hard?

The extra weight is going to suck. Here's my thought process on why I was still looking at a 4 stroke machine. I'm be looking at 400+lbs of riders and gear when shuttling a skier uphill. Probably pushing 500lbs of riders and gear with a backcountry first aid kit, fuel, tools, etc. So it's going to be more like 650 for the sled with fuel, and another 400-500 of rider and gear. I wouldn't be doing hard launches that way, but still wanting to pull as slow as possible but fast enough not to dig a trench up the mountain. Still - I'll be a big heavy tank no matter what.

But that's only if the sled is up to the kind of abuse I'm thinking. If the drive system is marginal with a featherweight rider, I'm going to destroy it. I like the idea of having a more power than I need and running it at 60% rather than buying a smaller engine and running it WOT all day long. And my general past experience is that most 2 stroke engines really don't do very well with running under heavy load at low-mid range rpms for extended periods.

I know I'm looking for something a bit outside of the normal use profile. But a lot of backcountry skiers seem to do okay on a variety of sleds. So maybe I'm overthinking it.

 

[goridedoo]

I would strongly advise not getting a 4 stroke… they suck, I’m sorry to any guys who like them, but they are tanks. I had a buddy who had a 2013 1100 and a newer viper, they were exhausting to ride, and stuck all the time.

My advice would be to find a factory 174” 2 stroke and put heavy rear springs on. A good belt and belt deflection and you should be just fine. I believe Doo started making the 174” in 2015 and Polaris in 2017.

I’ve never sled skied, but boy I would hate to even attempt it on a 1100 turbo, that sounds like a great way to have a bad time.

 

[Premirrider]

Not sure what your budget is, but for a reasonable price I’d look at either a Polaris pro or skidoo xm for sled skiing. They’re relatively light, get around the mountains well, and will haul two up. They work great for sled skiing. I If you want to spend more, buy the more modern chassis.

I don’t have any experience sled skiing on an arctic cat, but the polaris and doos have been great.

 

[goridedoo]

Maybe someone more knowledgeable on the 2012 Cats can chime in… they are about the least desirable sled from 2011 thru now. I believe there were alot of drivetrain issues along with poor handling and a tendency to trench terribly.

 

[JB-AK]

Thanks for all the suggestions. The market is pretty limited for used (or new) up here. There's an 11 M8 with unknown miles (broken ODO) and a 162 track for $5k. Might be okay. Might have 10k miles. When it's winter 9 months a year, it's not entirely uncommon to see 5 digit odometers. But, I can be patient. We don't have much snow yet. I'd like to stay in the $5-7k range, but that's flexible. Just kinda what I've been looking at.

 

[cbc24]

So tbh I would not purchase any Arctic cat machine pre 2014.
Polaris I would avoid any 800 model, the engines arent the greatest
Doo I would shoot for a xm chassi 800 163, but you may have to add stiffer rear springs. they are great machines.

A two stroke machine is vastly lighter and surprisingly less maintenance than a 4 stroke.
But to counter that, you are looking for something that can be a work horse, have you thought about utility sleds? Tundra, Titan , voyager etc? they usually have a hi and lo speed. at that point you can throw away the weight problem and a yamaha may not be bad idea. the nytros were good machines and they are cheap.. but they are cumbersome.

I have a set of ice age 174 rails for a 14/15 m8000 under my deck if you do find a cat. Im in Grande Prairie ab id sell em for 150$

 

[MrIQR]

I’ll start by saying this isnt snowmobile buying season, you’ll be paying thousands more now then you will in the spring or early summer.

The amount of skiing you’ll do from the sled will be less then you think, i bought my first sled 20 years ago to use for skiing and never have, ripping downhill turns on a sled is just as fun or more fun then skis. This is coming from a guy who traveled internationally to pursued skiing and has many 100+ day ski seasons. Being towed behind a sled on skis sucks, even up groomed ski area runs, we’d do that for training when it was too windy for lifts to run. I’d solo up and ghost it down if I lived in AK. Riding two up can be ok if both are experienced sledders, two newbies will have a tough time in most situations especially if packing ski gear.

My advice is get a solid reputable mtn sled and ride it. Your needs and wants will change by the end of your first seasons.

A 1100 would be at the bottom of my list for ski touring and probably in general.

I’d recommend-
2013+ Polaris 800
2013+ ski doo
2016+ cat

I would a avoid all four strokes, utility sleds and anything with tracks for what you want to do.

 

[JB-AK]

So tbh I would not purchase any Arctic cat machine pre 2014.
Polaris I would avoid any 800 model, the engines arent the greatest
Doo I would shoot for a xm chassi 800 163, but you may have to add stiffer rear springs. they are great machines.

A two stroke machine is vastly lighter and surprisingly less maintenance than a 4 stroke.
But to counter that, you are looking for something that can be a work horse, have you thought about utility sleds? Tundra, Titan , voyager etc? they usually have a hi and lo speed. at that point you can throw away the weight problem and a yamaha may not be bad idea. the nytros were good machines and they are cheap.. but they are cumbersome.

I have a set of ice age 174 rails for a 14/15 m8000 under my deck if you do find a cat. Im in Grande Prairie ab id sell em for 150$

I think I'll rule out the M1100t. I've owned a powerstroke 6.0. I don't need another of those things that you hear about how bad they are, but then you think "how bad could it really be?" and then a year later after 4 flatbed trips to the dealer you're sitting out by Vernal, Utah in the high desert waiting for 4 hours broke down in the 100* summer heat with a 2 year old.... No - I want the 3UR-FE version of a snowmobile.

The reason I'm shying away from the 2 strokes is that it still seems to be almost universal across brands and models years that they have roughly 2k mile service lives. I don't know if that's a local issue or just par for the course. Seems like almost every classified listing is something like this "2019 skidoo summit x 850 etec 174 inch track 8000 obo. Have all paperwork on this brand new motor 700 miles ago" That's the first Summit 850 that comes up in Craigslist. It seems like the reverse is true for many of the utility sleds and about anything from Yamaha. They usually read something like "2009 yamaha nytro mtx 162” track 1050cc 4 stroke, electric Start, reverse, tow bumper, tunnel build rack, wider skis, 5k miles, well maintained, runs excellent." (Also a direct quote from the first Yamaha).

From a distance it seems like if I was planning just to go snowmobiling it would be cheaper to rent. It's $350 per day to rent and if I were riding 150-200 miles per day riding, you'd only spend $3,500 - $4k in rental fees per engine lifespan. And I don't have to pay for anything else that wears or goes wrong. Plus I don't have to store it all summer, take the depreciation hit, etc. I'm exaggerating a bit here of course, but I'm really not sure it's that far off.

The utility sleds are kinda compelling. Some days I think shuttling on lower angle stuff would be great. Probably what I'd want to do most of the time depending on who I'm with. And the other days I'd be just skipping the lower angle stuff to go ski beyond where the sleds go on the bigger peaks. In the case of just getting to the bottom of the big stuff, then the utility sled might be better.

I wish the Nytros were cheap around here. Since they're often used as primary transportation instead of a toys they tend to command a premium. At least that's what I'm seeing. They're about 50% more than the price of similar year/mile summit/M8/RMX sleds. I really wish I could rent one for a day to see how it is. Everyone seems to be telling me I'll hate them. And I feel like I must have blinders on if I keep looking at them.

 

[goridedoo]

If you buy a 4 stroke and you don't know any better you might not mind it. Hard to say.

Still would strongly advise staying away from a 2012 Cat.

 

[SNWMBL]

Used sleds on CL or FB in Alaska right now are listed for 2x3 more than pre covid used prices, they are stupid expensive.

You would hate a stock Nytro. They are reliable and run good, but not enough power and too heavy to use for sled skiing.

 

[JB-AK]

Thanks. I really do appreciate the advice. Having no idea about the 12 turbo - I might have just blindly bought it. Reviews from 2012 were mostly positive looking back at the initial reviews from that era. But forum discussions are almost entirely about belt problems and clutch issues. It's just so hard to know whether that's 1% of them or 50%. Forums tend to fill up with the negative experiences. I think that's kinda human nature.

I had no real idea of what it was like to live in Alaska until I moved here. I didn't realize how expensive the Jones Act would make everything. My buddy owns a Can-am dealership in Utah and I could buy a new Ski doo through him for dealer cost. The killer part of that is the shipping. It's about $6k to get it from Utah to Anchorage. If they'd drop ship to me, that would be great, but I don't think they'll do that.

 

[JB-AK]

Used sleds on CL or FB in Alaska right now are listed for 2x3 more than pre covid used prices, they are stupid expensive.

You would hate a stock Nytro. They are reliable and run good, but not enough power and too heavy to use for sled skiing.

I don't know what they were pre-covid, but they seem really high compared to the book values. OTOH a new Summit is $25k up here, so they probably start a bit higher too. It kinda blows my mind when I see a 5 year old Honda Pioneer for $28k. They're only about $15k new MSRP. Or even a old Yamaha RX-1 for $7k? That's got to be more than they were new in the early 2000's. Is anyone buying them?

 

[SNWMBL]

Supply and demand. The older Yamaha 4-strokes used to be had for as low as $2,500

Alaska is a great place to live but it isn’t cheap.

 

[xpturbo600]

I am going to answer the original post directly since nobody here is a 4 stroke fan. The answer is the group collectively is right and wrong. The 1100 is a beast of a machine if you spend the money to redo the weak links. The 6.0 was disaster because of the motor; the m1100 turbo motor is the opposite. There is a reason many of the snow outlaw records stand for riders using cat motors. The worst case for a tuned sled is put head studs in the motor, and it is good for over 300 hp. The drivetrain however does have weak points. The factory m1100T has a silent chain, which breaks under power. Easy fix is put a hyvo chain in it. Next, I have not seen a jackshaft break but bdx makes one that is much stronger...done. Third, the clutch support frame is weak, and it requires a tcl delete frame support. Otherwise, find a way to hard mount the clutches relative to each other so misalignment cannot occur. Finally, cat clutches are not great. I suggest swapping them out, but people do make them work if your not extreme with power (350 and up club).

Outside of the drivetrain, you can adjust the chassis components according to your tastes. Yes, that sled loves a 174. But, you need to ask yourself whether it is better to drive and buy than to spend it on your own. Look at kijiji.ca. People in Canada have turned them up and you can get a good one for relatively decent money. Also, the later sleds are better than current sleds because the factory changed a lot of stuff to fix the issues.

My recommendation is to buy a sidewinder from 2018 or later and skip the rebuilding problems. They are more money, but they start life as much more sled too. Lastly, two strokes of today are not two strokes of yesterday. But, if you have a 20k budget for a factory sled, then you have the money to build a 4 stroke, which will outclimb a factory 2s turbo sled all day with your required task.

 

[jim]

I rode a stock M1100 for a full day in McCall at 8k feet. It was a tank to drive and move around. And, it was slow. I thought it would be fast because it's a turbo 4 stroke and my previous experience on turbo 4 strokes (Apex pump and race gas turbos) was that they were heavier but absolute beasts in deep pow and big hills. The M1100 was a tank and it was flat-out slow...I rode side by side with current 800cc 2 strokes, stock, of the same year and they were pulling me in the powder pretty easily...was weird. Lastly, I smelled burning rubber all day....it was just smoking the belt all day, and not a little (I had a stock clutched M1000 before)...it was literally smoking the belt all day, every pull. I also rode a full mod 1100 with all the bells and whistles...it was certainly faster and more Apex-like, but still was nothing compared to even a PG Apex (300HP rear mount kit) and was just an odd handler.

I'd look for a decent M8 in the 2009 to 2011 era...great motors and great range. And if you can wait until Feb, you can find one cheaper in Can or the states and get it shipped up to you...or just find one in AK. Good luck.

 

[BeartoothBaron]

I know nothing about using sleds for ski access, so I won't make any recommendations on that, other than to seek out people who are doing it and see what they use. They'll know what's useful in your area, and what's just going to be a hassle. Seems like you'd need just the right kind of area to sled up for ski access: somewhere with a not-so-steep back way around to a steep spot to ski down. Too steep and deep, and you quickly get to where no sled will work for ski access, no matter how you handle it. I'd have to agree with the people saying to buy something you'll want to ride: it may work just as well, and yeah, riding sleds is way more fun (to my mind) than skiing. I can see where, with the perfect snow and access and all, it's not the same as skiing, but it just seems like it'd be hard to put all those together without insanely deep pockets.

By the way, on the 6.0, my Dad's got one with over 400,000, and my brother has another 6.0. They're a flawed product that can be made as good as or better than anything. The EGR cooler is a common failure point: easy to eliminate, but there are upgraded versions if you have to run it. The fuel filter is too small: tends to restrict flow even when changed at recommended intervals, starving the injectors and causing them to hammer and fail. A minor upgrade to the fuel pump for more pressure and a fuel pressure gauge help with that. Head gasket issues are common; studs are about the only way around that, especially on a chipped or modded motor. Because the injectors are operated by oil pressure, full synthetic oil helps (especially in the cold). Finally, fuel additives to improve lubricity and keep the injectors clean are something you'd want. The 6.4 was really just as bad, and the 6.7 is more scary to my mind because you've got almost as much big-money stuff to fail in the exhaust as the engine. Just starting without DEF is a big advantage of the 6.0. As for me, I love my old 7.3. It's not that powerful (even modified), but just so much simpler, and even when something breaks, it's just a hassle, not something that'll set you back financially for the next six months.

 

[cbc24]

How hard would it be for you to come to northern ab/bc and scoop a machine up? the markets flooded down here and things keep going cheaper and cheaper... as predicted with a massive buying frenzy there will always be a bust... and I have a feeling we are at the end of the curve and its going to drop.

I wouldnt be afraid of a machine that has at 2000 miles as long as it had the maintenance records to show! I have friends that have had 800 etecs with 8000-10000km, with regular maintenance. I just expect to do some clutch work around 2000 miles with my type of riding. I would wait and just have the money for when a deal pops up and you will be able to jump! There will always be a good machine well maintained for a normal price, its a matter of how long you want to wait. The 14-17 m8000 were fantastic machines aswell, the 16+ is obviously going to be better but the older ones were not bad other than the handling and the clutches seem to have a shorter life.

 

[goridedoo]

How hard would it be for you to come to northern ab/bc and scoop a machine up? the markets flooded down here and things keep going cheaper and cheaper... as predicted with a massive buying frenzy there will always be a bust... and I have a feeling we are at the end of the curve and its going to drop.

I wouldnt be afraid of a machine that has at 2000 miles as long as it had the maintenance records to show! I have friends that have had 800 etecs with 8000-10000km, with regular maintenance. I just expect to do some clutch work around 2000 miles with my type of riding. I would wait and just have the money for when a deal pops up and you will be able to jump! There will always be a good machine well maintained for a normal price, its a matter of how long you want to wait. The 14-17 m8000 were fantastic machines aswell, the 16+ is obviously going to be better but the older ones were not bad other than the handling and the clutches seem to have a shorter life.

I'm just curious what you would look for in terms of maintenance records on a 2,000 mile 2 stroke?

Fresh clutches service is all that really comes to mind for me... which is something I would rather have done myself by someone reputable vs. some chit dealer.

The rest at 2k should be super simple stuff that a guy doesn't probably keep record of- plugs, belt, fresh fuel, skid grease.