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Race Gas/ Avi Gas Jetting

So I am finally getting close on my jetting for my 2 smoker and the thought of running high octane gas for a cooler motor ran through my mind last night. Of coarse I wouldn't be running full VP110 because I don't have a race motor nor the $$$$ to support that but I was thinking this might be a good idea to mix it with some non ethanol 92 in our applications on the snow bikes. We are typically holding these suckers wide open and I think a cleaner and cooler burning fuel would be good for them. Its not going to enhance any major performance but might prevent some melt downs.

So im looking for some opinions:

1) would mixing 110 with 92 non ethanol actually make a difference. mixing my five gallon jug 1 gallon VP and 4 gallons non ethanol? or do I need to mix more?

2)how badly will this effect my jetting? if I am already running a little rich this fuel mixture will lean it out a bit correct? Or at that mixture is it so little you wouldn't really need to touch the jetting?

A cooler and more efficient motor is a happy motor :)
 
You will lose performance running more octane than your engine requires. This could actually result in a negative return, as the diminished power output will work the engine harder, having to rev more in a lower gear ect. I would stick to the recomendations of the mfr. They test them to be run hard in much higher ambient temperatures than they see as a snobike.

Just my .02
 
You will lose performance running more octane than your engine requires. This could actually result in a negative return, as the diminished power output will work the engine harder, having to rev more in a lower gear ect. I would stick to the recomendations of the mfr. They test them to be run hard in much higher ambient temperatures than they see as a snobike.

Just my .02
Amen, much less likely to see det in these conditions, no heat soaking and superheated intake temps!

a cool motor is a happy motor, but in snowbiking 95% of the time they are too cold and not even reaching optimal combustion temps. pipe characteristics are off. etc. your gonna be looking for more heat then less except maybe late spring riding.
 
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My YZ 250 2 stroke was detonating first ride out this year. (Put on a Boondockers intake, obviously is breathing better.) So, being lazy and having Sunoco 110 laying around for my sled, I just mixed 50/50 with NA 91 octane pump gas. No more det and pulls noticeably harder. No jetting change req'd in my case.

Cheers,

LG
 
My YZ 250 2 stroke was detonating first ride out this year. (Put on a Boondockers intake, obviously is breathing better.) So, being lazy and having Sunoco 110 laying around for my sled, I just mixed 50/50 with NA 91 octane pump gas. No more det and pulls noticeably harder. No jetting change req'd in my case.

Cheers,

LG

Hay Larry. Good to hear. With C12 or Sunoco 110 you will always need to lean it out a touch. I know you run a good amount of oil. That is a little trick to lean it out slightly. At 28 or 32 to one will be leaner than 40 or 50 to one, etc. So with all of that in place, I would check your plug or better yet, a fast read EGT like the stinger from KOSO and jet for WOT to stabilize around 1200F. A 50/50 mix is a good mix if you have a little det going on. You need enough to stop the det but not more than it needs. You will loose performance. If it "needs it" you will gain. It sounds like your 50/50 mix is making it happy. Avoid AV gas, it's composition is for 2000 rpm / constant speed. If you need to blend some fuel use race gas. If you want that EGT to borrow, it is on the shelf in my shop. I will be out of town next week.
 
I would never urge a person to not run quality fuel. 1/5 is20% and that is common blend in the sled world. I say go for it. 110 leaded is good insurance. I just started a 300 that CP did for me (ported w/ 110 head) it sounds real good. Couple trips to the desert, and then LT for late winter.
 
Oops,! I meant to respond to Andrew, not snocattin. Sorry Larry, you didn't ask the question! lol
 
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Avoid AV gas, it's composition is for 2000 rpm / constant speed. If you need to blend some fuel use race gas. If you want that EGT to borrow, it is on the shelf in my shop. I will be out of town next week.[/QUOTE]

Rubbish I say my turbo and supercharged sleds have never seen anything else and at 11thousand RPM they are just fine with Ave gas.

That said use high octane fuel only if your engine needs it or you will loose performance and actually run hot due to the delayed flame front.
 
I understand your remark. "Rubbish". We all have run a few gallons of AV gas with success. Yes, It works better than our pump fuels but the depth and difference between AV gas and Race Fuel deserves an explanation. AV gas will work, but specifically designed "Race Gas" is a much better choice for the "modder" or tuner who wants the best end result. I personally do not compromise...

Avgas 80/87: this product is used in low compression ratio aircraft engines, contains little or no lead, is red in color, and should not be used in any automotive engine due to a low motor octane number of about 80.

Avgas 100/130: this product that can be used in some automotive engines. It has both research and motor octane numbers slightly over 100. Avgas 100/130 is green in color, contains four grams of lead per gallon, and is becoming harder to find.

Avgas 100 LL: the LL stands for "low-lead" which means two grams per gallon, low compared to the avgas 100/130 that it was designed to replace. It has research and motor octane numbers very similar to the 100/130 product previously discussed. The color is blue. This product sometimes has a high level of aromatics, which can contribute to lazy throttle response, and dissatisfaction of the consumer

Avgas 115/145: this product was developed for high performance piston aircraft engines used in world war II and in the Korean war. It is very hard to find anymore due to lack of demand although it is of very high-octane quality. The color is purple.

Avgas is less dense and has a lower specific gravity than most racing gasolines. Instead of weighing about 6.1 to 6.3 pounds per gallon like racing gasoline, it weighs 5.8 to 5.9 pounds per gallon. The racer must compensate for this by changing to richer (larger) jets in the carburetor when changing from racing gasoline to avgas.

The other major difference is octane quality. Avgas is short on octane, has a lower volatility and doesn't evaporate as quickly, which is important for high-altitude use. Gasoline/Race fuels are more volatile fuel than Avgas, diesel or kerosene. The reason for this is not only the base constituents, but also the additives that are put into it. The final control of volatility is often via blending of butane. The desired volatility depends on the ambient temperature: the hotter the weather, the lower the volatility

AvGas is a good gasoline for low speed aircraft engines that run at 2700 to 2800 RPM at 10,000 feet or higher. This does not mean it is a good gasoline for racing engines operating at 8,000 to 10,000 RPM.

AvGas can be illegal to use in anything except aircraft engines because of on aromatics in general, benzene in particular, and olefins (alkene) content. Violations can carry a potential penalty of $25,000 per day of violation.

AvGas octane numbers are determined in a different test than motor gasoline octane numbers. Do not be confused by the big numbers from the AvGas test method. They are not comparable to motor gasoline test numbers. A 111 octane Racing Fuel tests at 160 on the AvGas Scale.

Engines running AvGas with "quick" spark advance curves or with no centrifugal advance have more spark advance at low rpm that racing gasolines can handle.

The result is detonation; Inadequate octane quality is one of the quickest ways to destroy an engine.

A Quote released from SUNOCO

Aviation gasolines are leaded and not taxed as road fuels, either of which make them illegal for use on public highways. Aircraft engines are also essentially low engine speed, constant throttle applications that must work well at very low atmospheric pressure and temperature. Aviation gasolines are blended to work well only under these very specific circumstances, and do not perform as well under high rpm and high load applications.

Only our opinion: For maximum engine performance, stability and power use race fuels with octane levels designed to mactch your engine specifications.

Quick Reference

Octane rating

The most important characteristic of gasoline is its Research Octane Number (RON) or octane rating, which is a measure of how resistant gasoline is to premature detonation (knocking). It is measured relative to a mixture of isooctane (2,2,4-trimethylpentane) and n-heptane. So an 87-octane gasoline has the same knock resistance as a mixture of 87% isooctane and 13% n-heptane.

There is another type of Octane, called "Motor Octane Number" (MON), which is a better measure of how the fuel behaves when under load. Its definition is also based on the mixture of isooctane and n-heptane that has the same performance. Depending on the composition of the fuel, the MON of a modern gasoline will be about 10 points lower than the RON. Normally fuel specifications require both a minimum RON and a minimum MON.

Volatility

Gasoline is a more volatile fuel than Avgas, diesel or kerosene. The reason for this is not only the base constituents, but also the additives that are put into it. The final control of volatility is often via blending of butane. The desired volatility depends on the ambient temperature: the hotter the weather, the lower the volatility. The maximum volatility of gasoline in many countries has been reduced in recent years to reduce the fugitive emissions during refueling.

Knock resistance

An air and fuel mixtures' ability to resist rapid auto ignition - when compressed in a spark ignited engine running at a specific temperature and compression ratio - long enough to avoid detonation or Engine knocking. Detonation occurs when the fuel mix not yet consumed by the flames from the spark plug auto ignites all at once (or sometimes perhaps when the flame front goes supersonic because of early ignition timing). A fuel with an high auto ignition temperature that burns reasonably fast and thus doesn't need early ignition timing, will therefore most often have high practical value knock resistance. Ethyl alcohol is such a fuel.

Interesting Fact during World War II and octane

One interesting historical issue involving octane rating took place during WWII. Germany received the vast majority of her oil from Romania, and set up huge distilling plants in Germany to produce gasoline from it.

In the US the oil was not 'as good' and the oil industry instead had to invest heavily in various expensive boosting systems. This turned out to be a huge blessing in disguise. US industry was soon delivering fuels of ever-increasing octane ratings by adding more of the boosting agents, with cost no longer a factor during wartime.

By war's end American aviation fuel was commonly 130 to 150 octanes, which could easily be put to use in existing engines to deliver much more power by increasing the compression delivered by the superchargers. The Germans, relying entirely on 'good' gasoline, had no such industry, and instead had to rely on ever-larger engines to deliver more power. The result is that British and US engines consistently outperformed German ones during the war, playing no small part in the defeat of the Luftwaffe.

Hope this helps your decision.
 
From the point of a race fuel supplier a good read.
Ave fuel is tested on a supercharged Knock engine with a 312 degree intake temperature. Not a cold intake normally aspirated Knock engine. Big Difference.

It is super stable at high intake temperatures and thereby superbly suited in any super or turbocharged applications.

Any engine that does not need the high octane will not benefit from it and will have a lazy throttle response .

Race gas specifically blended for our needs is Idea but also comes at a cost $

I had a Red bull sponsored snow cross racer come through here on factory 600 snow cross race sleds -- he was told to use straight Av fuel if race fuel was not available no jetting changes he just ran it straight in place of 110 octane race fuel and cleaned up on the drag races and hill climb.

To each there own if you have the extra $$ go for Race fuel. If you need to mix it change your engine set up so you can run straight pump fuel .

I am a firm believer in using what you need straight up.

Fuel or Booze go with the good stuff straight up cheers
 
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