pressure or torsion driven springs

[gus bohne]

Here's a topic that should be a good one, many of us like one better than the other for most situations..
i am a steadfast torsion guy,, seems no matter what springs and cams someone has in the driven I can make the sled accelerate much harder and have cold clutchs.

with strait pressure springs we loose mph and wear belts harder..

whats the rest of the world see in this comparison..



An example is a friends 2009 turbo 1200 doo,, WOW what a difference with a torsion vs the strait..WOW..

of course there is drive clutch work too but the drivens at least on turbos do work better and more repeatable with a torsion..


Gus

 

[winter brew]

This is one of those topics that can run in circles forever with no concrete answers....and makes for some good exchange of ideas!! My take on it.....the results seen from secondary spring changes (tortion or tension), combined with helix angle and how well it "matches up" with the primary setup, can be achieved in more than 1 way. If a guy gets great results going to a tortion setup, that tells me the tension setup was not optimum....I have seen it go both ways.
The belt sees/feels the squeeze of the sheaves...that's it. How that amount of squeeze is achieved.....whether with springs (tortion or tension) or helix angle, the belt doesn't know.
The main thing is finding a setup that works best for a given application....and different tuners will find different ways to get there with the literally infinate number of combinations of primary/secondary tuning parts available, combined with the custom home-made stuff.

 

[hatchers]

ive got a stack of clutch stuff, went back and forth the last two years...now i have two secondary and am able to swap em on the hill and make damn sure its a minimal perf change....its just so hard to see a minimal perf change on big boost in deep pow........er im sure its easier to tell on a stocker

 

[hatchers]

The main thing is finding a setup that works best for a given application

true, however clutching still needs to be fine tuned to the riders wants/needs......too many people here dont see it that way, my style of clutching a tad different from most, id rather have a pretty soft engagement a wicked backshift, most want a solid engagement and hate a nasty backshift......its all in wehat "you" want

 

[gus bohne]

All so true,, I may be off for you guys as I am on the flats with very low hard packed groomed snow..
very low drag and thus very light pressure needed for belt grip even with boost.

Brew, maybe you can put this into perspective..
is a 50 cam with a white doo torsion going to produce the same side pressure as the same driven with nothing changed except the type of spring ??

I ask this to understand the difference between squeeze force and shift force .

does any sled really need 300 psi in the driven to hold the belt ??

or is it due to primary vs secondary balance, and does the belt favor one vs the other ??

just discussion and enlightenment guys..we all learn every day

Gus

 

[Wheel House Motorsports]

I am just a lowly learner in the world of clutching, BUT< from what I have learned over the last few years playing with doo's, now turbo yamaha's. You can run really light setups on both clutchs or really heavy setups.

I think my rx1 on 10# runs significanly softer springs and light weights then my old 600 doo. The secondary spring was shot, so it didnt help hold the belts quite like it should. BUT, back to the topic. I really LOVE the ideal of compression/torsion combo's. It allows the end user to tune much more closely for there conditions that day/hil/snow.. Whether or not it is the most ideal tuning technique, Im not sure by any means, BUT, I do know that it works really well and is a very simple and quick adjustment with very positive results as far as getting the sled dialed in on one day/time.


And just from a statics standpoint, the benefit of torsional adjustment versus compression adjustments changes with the angle of the helix. unless your running a straight 45.. then they are virtually identical as far as affect on the spring. Above a 45 your gonna see more pressure genereated by a compression force, below a 45 your gonna see the torsional force have more affect. Just some random talking.. not really clutching ideas.

 

[winter brew]

All so true,, I may be off for you guys as I am on the flats with very low hard packed groomed snow..
very low drag and thus very light pressure needed for belt grip even with boost.

Brew, maybe you can put this into perspective..
is a 50 cam with a white doo torsion going to produce the same side pressure as the same driven with nothing changed except the type of spring ??

I ask this to understand the difference between squeeze force and shift force .

does any sled really need 300 psi in the driven to hold the belt ??

or is it due to primary vs secondary balance, and does the belt favor one vs the other ??

just discussion and enlightenment guys..we all learn every day

Gus

I like to use as little secondary spring as necessary to get adequate backshift, I am NOT a fan of massive sec. springs in tortion or tension.
I don't claim to know the exact effect of spring tension from strictly a mathematical/engineering standpoint, but rather what I know from theory and alot of testing/experimenting.
The sec spring seems to have the greatest effect at low-mid speeds/shift ratios. After that, the helix produces the vast majority of belt squeeze and the spring has less effect.
And yes, I do believe you can get the same side pressure with both style springs....or with a combination of spring/helix angle. There are literally an infinite number of combinations so anything is possible.
There are alot of guys that prefer the older clutches with the tortion setup. What are the reasons why the mfr's and aftermarket have (for the most part) gone away from this to the tension designs? I know electronic reverse is one of them....what are others?

 

[gus bohne]

Thanks Paul and dooin it,, nice to have a conversation without antaginizing each other..LOL

my gut tells me the oems made the change in a monkey see monkey do manufacturing move , doo, polaris and now cat are all in bed with team ind.

for snox I love the strait pressure spring and team driven.. for drags,, the team looses speed baddly,, BUT !!!!!

most like myself have boxs of helixs and springs for what we KNEW before,, we do NOT have that same selection of team tuning pieces to be fair when we test..

I am very guilty of that...

for ice drags I stick with a bearcat driven, red white cat torsion ( 14 lbs twist). straight 51 cam..

the 800 rev dragger has the hpv driven, beige at 21 lbs, 42/34 cam .

I've tried the team and the oem press spring in the hpv but as I said, guilty of limited tuning parts for a fair test..


Thanks guys,,

Gus

 

[Wheel House Motorsports]

This is fun stuff, as I LOVE techincal/theory discussion..


As far reasoning for going away from a torsional. I know on my rx1 secondary.. if you want to pull the thing open 10x easier.. twist it backwards, so that would mean the thing would slip the belt like a SOB with electronic reverse. the torsional is only one directional, and then rotating the clutch backwards has somewhat of a reverse affect then.. but thats just in my brain, but seems logical just from my hand compression of the clutch test.

as far as getting the side pressure.. your definately right winterbrew.. you can basically select a side pressure and generate it by taking your 3 variables ( compression, tension, and helix angle.) putting them together to get your final force.


this post to be continued.. im busy..

 

[milehighassassin]

Keep it going guys! Enjoying this!

 

[KMOD]

helix

OK
quoting mr. AAen the smaller the angle on the helix the more belt presure you get, so why on turbos (at least in the mountains) do the larger helix's work better?
Kevin

 

[gus bohne]

No load No boost... load it and it will go,, ***** foot it and it will flounder..LOL

No worky no pay...


then there is the old, shallow helix, tight spring, big weights big springs ,,, hot clutchs form trying to fight that driven to open and stay in any one range for any given amount of time without constantly trying to back shift.
turbos do NOT need to be so biased to the driven as a regular wimpy sled....

Gus

 

[Eli]

All so true,, I may be off for you guys as I am on the flats with very low hard packed groomed snow..
very low drag and thus very light pressure needed for belt grip even with boost.

Brew, maybe you can put this into perspective..
is a 50 cam with a white doo torsion going to produce the same side pressure as the same driven with nothing changed except the type of spring ??

I ask this to understand the difference between squeeze force and shift force .

does any sled really need 300 psi in the driven to hold the belt ??

or is it due to primary vs secondary balance, and does the belt favor one vs the other ??

just discussion and enlightenment guys..we all learn every day

Gus

Here is the setup on my last sled...

I had a Paragon that I ran on my 995 PSI Polaris . It worked perfect in the mountains. Here is my combo. 70/130 primary spring, 53 gram primary 10m style polaris weights, 58-55 helix, Hi-Tech compression spring and solid cap on the secondary, 18/43 gearing with 7t 3.0 drivers using an 080 Polaris belt. I have been running the light setup on this engine for almost 7 years and have yet to have belt issues. Belt's seem to last forever. Sled engages at 3200, puts around effortlessly in the trees (not revvy), and pull a constant 8300-8400 climbing-even when going through whooped up sections.

Granted, this is not turbo power, but was a heck of a lot more than any stock 800. 53 gram weights and a 70/130 spring and a cool belt? I don't think there is a ton of slippage. I also know of another Polaris that for testing purposes ran for a while without a primary spring. More spring/more weight, less spring/less weight. Kind of a balancing act.

On another note, I had a M-1000 for a while that I used a 74/228 primary, with lighter weights than stock....worked lovely. IMO, we don't need crazy spring pressures.

I just picked up the t-dragon in the picture below and am going to run it with the 76 gram Daltons that came in it until I get a baseline. Then I will be putting the Paragon and that 70/130 spring using 56 gram baseline Heavy Hitter weights and will report back. Not much snow yet, so it will be into December before I get a chance for the lightweight setup on a turbo.

 

[KMOD]

No load No boost... load it and it will go,, ***** foot it and it will flounder..LOL

No worky no pay...


then there is the old, shallow helix, tight spring, big weights big springs ,,, hot clutchs form trying to fight that driven to open and stay in any one range for any given amount of time without constantly trying to back shift.
turbos do NOT need to be so biased to the driven as a regular wimpy sled....

Gus

Same old sh-- with the turbos Gus, just go opposite of normal thinking and it seems to work better for turbos(lower ports, bigger pipes,larger helix and on and on) as always you make a lot of sense, I don't know anybody with more experience and is willing to share like you.
Keep it up and Thanks
Kevin

 

[gus bohne]

Thanks Kevin,
Nice to have friends like you,, and keep this thought in mnd..
174 kmod for a doo ??
Hopefully I'll need one in Jan..

Gus

 

[KMOD]

Thanks Kevin,
Nice to have friends like you,, and keep this thought in mnd..
174 kmod for a doo ??
Hopefully I'll need one in Jan..

Gus

Will do and I hope you ice racers aren't afraid of heights.
Kevin