power claw with 8 tooth works great

[wyorider]

I have a new assault and put a 153 power claw on with 8 tooth interlude drivers from Wahl bothers and tell you what, what a difference even between the 5.1 Polaris track. It is tight fit the first time but once it stretches it fits just fine. A lot of people are saying it is too tight for clearance between the bulk head but I crunched some numbers and it is only about 1/32 of an inch closer so pretty much the same. The little bigger driver dose gear it up so I put a 19 tooth top gear on and it, came out slightly gear down from the complete stock set up which seems to work really well.

Anyone that is looking to do a track swap I would highly recommend the power claw it flat works in deep snow and also works well on hard pack and stopping power downhill.
I have about 300 miles on this new ride and I every time I go, I still am impressed.

 

[jasonsdzl]

Did the same on my assault ,except left the gearing stock and absolutely love it . Coming off an xp.

 

[mountainhorse]

Sounds great...I installed this setup too last weekend on a PRO-RMK for a friend... but used the Avid 8 tooth drivers made for the Pro Driveshaft.

This track will make your sled much more deep snow friendly. Works well downhill too, contrary to other comments.... you just need to be a more active rider, pump the brakes, on downhills.

Do you have the 90 duro HCR track or the standard 80 duro (85 duro 2011 cat)?

Do you have a part number for us on the Whal 8 tooth involute drivers for the PRO chassis?

What temp/moisture content snow were you riding in... ie.. what kind of snow?

The stock track has no where near ideal clearance for max performance... less evident in cold light fluff compared to costal snow.

I've had the a PC 153" track on a sled for 2 seasons I love it for all but the fluff (where it still does well)

Since a 7 tooth driver will not work with the PRO RMK... there really is not an inexpensive option for more clearance.

The 2.5" Camo Extremes that I have seen on the PRO's (and measured accurately) have almost zero clearance.

Avid has an extended chaincase that will bolt in except the PTO bearing side which is an easy mod... Ice Age will have one coming soon.

These were the numbers I crunched on the 3"-8 tooth compared to the 2.86" 8 tooth.

Circumference / Pi = Diameter

3" pitch x 8 tooth.... 24/Pi = approx 7.64" diameter ... 3.82" from driveshaft center to inside surface of the track

2.86" pitch x 8 tooth.... 22.8/Pi = approx 7.25" diameter ... 3.625" from driveshaft center to inside surface of the track

The difference is .17" or a bit over 1/8" less clearance for any given track.

When I actually measured the drivers (3" 8 tooth Wahl driver from last season compared to the stock 2.86" pitch 8 tooth driver)... I got .15" difference (as measured) .. still over an 1/8"....

I measured the lug height of the 2011 series 5.1 and it came out to 2.35" and the lug height of the PC track at 2.20".... same thickness of the single ply belt in both.

This would give the PC track "a push" in actual lug-tip clearance compared to one another. (stock series 5.1 to PC) when running the 8 tooth drivers in their respective correct pitch.

In heavy coastal snow, on identical D8's (same clutching, stock motors/exhaust, stock suspensions, same tracks (153" PC's), same final drive ratio, factory venting) except that one ran the 7 tooth drivers and one ran the 8 tooth drivers..... the one with more clearance had consistanly lower clutch temps by 30 degrees... That is a good indication of the extra work needed to be done by the sled with less clearance...both sleds had clean, broken-in 115 belts with clean clutches that were both checked for alignment/side clearance/float/deflection.

You could just plain feel the difference between the two clearances in the "mashed potato snow"...that difference was not felt as much in the colder, "fluffier" snow at 10,000 ft.

 

[MGM]

How much would something like this cost total with the track, roughly? And is it possible and how long would it take to do for a guy with average mechanical knowledge to do?

 

[WyoPro]

You've just been mountainhorsed...

 

[wyorider]

Sounds great...I installed this setup too last weekend on a PRO-RMK for a friend... but used the Avid 8 tooth drivers made for the Pro Driveshaft.

This track will make your sled much more deep snow friendly. Works well downhill too, contrary to other comments.... you just need to be a more active rider, pump the brakes, on downhills.

Do you have the 90 duro HCR track or the standard 80 duro (85 duro 2011 cat)?

Do you have a part number for us on the Whal 8 tooth involute drivers for the PRO chassis?

What temp/moisture content snow were you riding in... ie.. what kind of snow?

The stock track has no where near ideal clearance for max performance... less evident in cold light fluff compared to costal snow.

I've had the a PC 153" track on a sled for 2 seasons I love it for all but the fluff (where it still does well)

Since a 7 tooth driver will not work with the PRO RMK... there really is not an inexpensive option for more clearance.

The 2.5" Camo Extremes that I have seen on the PRO's (and measured accurately) have almost zero clearance.

Avid has an extended chaincase that will bolt in except the PTO bearing side which is an easy mod... Ice Age will have one coming soon.

These were the numbers I crunched on the 3"-8 tooth compared to the 2.86" 8 tooth.



When I actually measured the drivers (3" 8 tooth Wahl driver from last season compared to the stock 2.86" pitch 8 tooth driver)... I got .15" difference (as measured) .. still over an 1/8"....

I measured the lug height of the 2011 series 5.1 and it came out to 2.35" and the lug height of the PC track at 2.20".... same thickness of the single ply belt in both.

This would give the PC track "a push" in actual lug-tip clearance compared to one another. (stock series 5.1 to PC) when running the 8 tooth drivers in their respective correct pitch.

In heavy coastal snow, on identical D8's (same clutching, stock motors/exhaust, stock suspensions, same tracks (153" PC's), same final drive ratio, factory venting) except that one ran the 7 tooth drivers and one ran the 8 tooth drivers..... the one with more clearance had consistanly lower clutch temps by 30 degrees... That is a good indication of the extra work needed to be done by the sled with less clearance...both sleds had clean, broken-in 115 belts with clean clutches that were both checked for alignment/side clearance/float/deflection.

You could just plain feel the difference between the two clearances in the "mashed potato snow"...that difference was not felt as much in the colder, "fluffier" snow at 10,000 ft.

Well I measured everything as well mountainhourse and if you do the math right you will get different #s.
Circumference of a circle= 2pi*r
teeth *pitch =c then take c and solve for r

3.00” c=24 r=3.8197
2.86” c=22.88 r=3.6415

3.8197-3.6415=.1782

I measured the track lug height from the bottom of the belt and the there is roughly .15 difference between the pc and the 5.1 so if you take .1782-.15=.0282

That does not look like an eight to me.

1/32=.03125 so really the gain is less than 1/32

Mountain horse 1/8=.125

 

[goforbroke]

Okay, not trying to follow the math. Are you saying the power claw has less clearnance then the poo 5.1? or more clearance? why can't you use the stock drivers? on doos a few people ran a 3 pitch track with 2.86 drivers.

 

[wyorider]

track

How much would something like this cost total with the track, roughly? And is it possible and how long would it take to do for a guy with average mechanical knowledge to do?

For the track its self you can get them for around $600 from a few spots. For the drivers Carls has them for about $80 for the pair.

Mechanically wise it’s not hard at all it’s pretty strait forward other than pressing on and off the drivers. If you measure and measure again so the centers of the drivers are in the exact spot as they were.

If you have an assault you will have to drill out the top holes and move the front arm up to the new drilled out holes. The track is too tight if you put it in the lower holes. Once the track has stretched you can put it back in the stock holes.

 

[wyorider]

track

Okay, not trying to follow the math. Are you saying the power claw has less clearnance then the poo 5.1? or more clearance? why can't you use the stock drivers? on doos a few people ran a 3 pitch track with 2.86 drivers.

You have roughly about 1/32” less than the 5.1 with the PC.

For the drivers I have heard that people are using the 2.86 and would like to hear from some one that has done it. But if you ask me having the proper drivers for the track is the best way to go then you will not have any weird wear or bind.

 

[goforbroke]

So changing track and drivers gives slightly less clearance, but you think the sled goes better with the PC track. Looking at your measurements if I used the stock drivers and went to the PC track I would have more clearance than stock - correct?

 

[wyorider]

So changing track and drivers gives slightly less clearance, but you think the sled goes better with the PC track. Looking at your measurements if I used the stock drivers and went to the PC track I would have more clearance than stock - correct?

You are correct using the stock drivers will give you more clearance than using the proper 3.00” pitch drivers.

With the pc with 3.00 drivers it defiantly goes better than the 5.1 track
and, if you gear it down to 19 it is really close to the same ratio

 

[600xc4me]

Who pissed in your coffee? The guy is trying to help people out by giving out info, and asking questions of you that will in turn also provide more info for others. I find nothing that offending in his comment?

 

[wyorider]

Who pissed in your coffee? The guy is trying to help people out by giving out info, and asking questions of you that will in turn also provide more info for others. I find nothing that offending in his comment?

No one pissed in my coffee; actually I don’t even drink coffee. I answered his question and strangely enough they did not make much sense and didn’t help with info.

 

[600xc4me]

No one pissed in my coffee; actually I don’t even drink coffee. I answered his question and strangely enough they did not make much sense and didn’t help with info.

Neither do I. lol Reading his post made sense to me? That's how he works. He asks questions till a person runs dry of info. I didn't think he was saying anything offensive, or anything pointless for that matter. Reading your reply to his, sounded like you were taking all kinds of offense to something I felt wasn't ment in that way at all. Sorry if I read it wrong.

 

[wyorider]

Neither do I. lol Reading his post made sense to me? That's how he works. He asks questions till a person runs dry of info. I didn't think he was saying anything offensive, or anything pointless for that matter. Reading your reply to his, sounded like you were taking all kinds of offense to something I felt wasn't ment in that way at all. Sorry if I read it wrong.

Well I did take what he said offensive, for the reasons that I first handedly know what I measured and how much clearance I have and he is sitting there telling me that I’m wrong. First off the numbers came out mathematically as well has using a measuring device on the sled its self to measure the difference in lug clearance.

I’m not trying to be a jerk I am a type of person that speaks my mind and that’s how I felt if you’re going to try and help someone with something don’t try and nitpick it apart and make it seem like your helping.

 

[dmaxd2500]

So how does the challenger extreme compare to the pc? I could run the CE with my stock drivers, correct? Is clearance an issue with the CE? I have no experience with either one of these tracks but are they really that much better the the 5.1? I didn't think it was too bad, but again I've never experienced anything else so I'm just wondering if I'm missing out.

 

[AKSNOWRIDER]

So how does the challenger extreme compare to the pc? I could run the CE with my stock drivers, correct? Is clearance an issue with the CE? I have no experience with either one of these tracks but are they really that much better the the 5.1? I didn't think it was too bad, but again I've never experienced anything else so I'm just wondering if I'm missing out.

the ce 2.5 wont fit the pro without a new case to lower the driveshaft...just not enough room.....now..I have been thru the tunnel clearence issue with a buddy ..he had a mod vertical escape..I had a 08 dragon..we both put on the camo extreme 163..his was a 3.0 which he used 7 tooth drivers and no drop and roll...mine was the 2.86 with stock drivers and a D&R..both sleds..before and after were pretty much identical in all conditions..climbing/boondocking...everything....until we got a 3 ft + day...in super deep super fluffy snow...the dragon could crawl and go with no issues..but the vertical edge..was a trenching sinking fool..we both after much thought put that off to the drop and roll and the tunnel clearence it provides..it just allows so much more flow thru the top of the tunnel...no matter what you do...there is no one way to get there..good luck...

 

[wyorider]

So how does the challenger extreme compare to the pc? I could run the CE with my stock drivers, correct? Is clearance an issue with the CE? I have no experience with either one of these tracks but are they really that much better the the 5.1? I didn't think it was too bad, but again I've never experienced anything else so I'm just wondering if I'm missing out.

We just put a brand new 2.5 CE on a new pro assault and it is a lil tight but it can be done with the stock driver’s leaves about .5 in clearance. The CE is a good all around track were the PC works a lil better in deep dense snow. I had a 2.5 CE on my 09 assault and it worked great, was very happy with it. The PC is quite a bit lighter than the CE and I can feel that in the new pro with the PC installed. The two tracks compared to the 5.1 is a good way to outperform your buddy. The 5.1 seems to fold over and not do much in certain situations but in some situation they are comparable.

Hope this helps

Thanks

 

[mountainhorse]

wyorider,

I see our posts in agreement and complimentary... If, in my ham-fisted presentation, I came off as being disrespectful, I apologize sincerely... This was not my intention and I'm sorry if it came off this way.

My only point, in my WAY too long-winded reply, was that the clearance issue rears it head in wet/heavy snow to a larger degree.

Are you suggesting that I am not an active rider or are you saying I don’t know what I am doing on a sled.

Neither... The "contrary" comment stems from a lot of other comments on other threads and other brands that use the Power claw.... Many complain about the downhill-braking performance of this track.

I like the downhill performance of the track... the same as you ... I probably should have been more precise if it read that I was inferring "Contrary to your position".... I think we are in agreement here... This track does hold up to its name "claw".... it grabs the snow well and holds it in the track in dense snow... a couple of pumps on the brake here and there and it changes the track from a "magic carpet ride" into a good decender. Just letting others know what my observations on this track have been in use.

Call whal brothers and order them or call carls there is your part #.

The reason that I asked is that Jack had just ordered some custom drivers from Robbie at Avid, special cut as involute only, because he could not get the drivers for the new design of the PRO Shaft from PPD any longer... It was a sincere question that I'd like to learn from.

I just thought that it would be good to have the info out there. The PPD 8 tooth involute drivers that Wahl/SLP/Carl's sold last year were discontinued, and from what I was told by Polaris and Avid the previous drivers, remaining in stock with some dealers, will not fit properly on the new dimension shaft... they were not going to make them for the new dimensions of the shaft on the PRO when I spoke with Wahl a while back.

I guess this has changed in the last couple of weeks.

Wiast deep with about 2 feet of base temp was about 10 degrees F. and what dose this have to do with letting people know that this set up works

Cold, light, snow moves much more easily through the tunnel than heavy/wet/spring snow. The stiff lugs of the PC track seem to magnify the effect of the heavier snow in comparison to the more pliable paddles of the softer series 5.1 tracks.

Different people ride in different snow...Different snow changes the way the track loads up. WYO/CO/UT pow is much different than coastal or spring snow.

The Coastal/spring snow magnifies the loading effect on the clutches to a higher degree than the lighter snow.

More simply put, heavy/wet snow increases the drag-losses through the tunnel which, in my experience, is a significant performance factor in those snow conditions.

The stiffer lugs of the PC track also magnify this "loading in wet snow"...

F-Bomb, with his track mod actually stiffens up his stock track by adding screws to the lugs and cutting a 1/4" off the lug height... more track speed and lower clutch temps with the additional clearance... Anthony Oberti had similar results cutting a bit more off the lug height of his Camoplast Ch Ext 2.5" track... again more evident in heavy/wet/spring snow conditions... though they both ride in all the snow conditions.

On my D-7 at the end of last season, I tried the new 7 tooth drivers that Robbie made for me (the photos that I have in the "New Avid" thread) after running the 8 tooth PPD's that I had the week before... the difference from simply increasing the clearance was significant and the snow actually was heavier/wetter when I ran the 7 tooth drivers
(I compensated with gearing to come to the same final drive ratio on both setups). This Was in the "Sierra Cement"...
This is what prompted me to compare the two D-8's head-2-head when I had the opportunity.

IMO, a bit more clearance than the factory has is a benefit with any track.

So Polaris does not have any idea what the proper clearance is. I forgot you’re the engineer that Knows all, so I suggest you tell the people that have years of experience and knowledge that there idiots.

I've talked to the engineers at Polaris about this in person... The majority of their development is done in lighter snow of the Rockies where, as I've said, reacts differently to clearance issues compared to heavy/wet/spring snow.

Those same engineers are some of the sharpest people that I've had the pleasure of talking with. Their focus is, by their own admission, on deep snow performance in the Rockies... which is why they designed the series 5.1 tracks the way they did.

There are some practical limitations in production and cost when it comes to the design of a sled and distributing tooling/fixturing costs over more models in a lineup...

The RUSH sleds, with their short lug tracks share the same chaincase length as the PRO-RMK's... the tunnel roof distance is almost identical on the two sleds... From a manufacturing-cost perspective... this is a compromise that they can live with for the majority of their customers that buy the sleds in the central mountain region.... which is evident in their concentration of 2011 tour locations concentrated in the Rockies... Oregon being the only coastal concession.
http://www.polarisindustries.com/en-us/snowmobiles/2011/Demo-Rides/Pages/Demo-Tour-Schedule.aspx

Costal snow so does this mean that what you like to ride.

I like riding the UT, Revy and Colorado pow much more than the "Sierra Cement" and "Cascade Concrete" that I ride from Tahoe to Whistler. My travels to Kremmling, Togwotee, Alpine, Revelstoke, Blue River, and Idaho and others in this area have been the best riding with the best snow I've had the pleasure to ride... Over the hood "blower" pow is amazing on a sled or a snowboard You guys in the Rockies are definitely blessed!

Have many friends with that set up and works fine and stil have about .5 tp .75 inch of clearance that’s far from zero.

The front of the tunnel where you will see that nice clearance is not the "tight spot" in the tunnel... it is at the roof of the tunnel... the smaller coolers of the PRO help in this department.

Your math is off

You are right on the math... I did not carry out the decimal place on the 2.86" pitch and did not get the last 8/100's correct.

Our math is the same except for this.

The .17 diff is the difference of the Radius of the two drivers ... (3" & 2.86") which IS just a hair over 1/8" for "any given track"... Since the two tracks, as we both pointed out, are .15" different in lug height that would have to be factored in as you and I both did...

By the math... the difference IS the approx 1/32" .... By the jumbo dial caliper on my bench... it comes out to be a "Push" ... the actual measured diff in the driver radius is .15... which as we both point out is canceled out by the .15" shorter lug of the PC track.

Wait!! on a thread before you said 7 tooth are the only way and the 8 tooth will not work. Get your facts right.

Which is why I posted the correction for the PRO Chassis on the 11-22
http://www.snowestonline.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2492034&postcount=74

And Made Robbie's post "Caution 7 tooth 3" drivers" a sticky at the same time
http://www.snowestonline.com/forum/showthread.php?t=236406

Again... I'm Sorry if my reply came off the wrong way... not my intent and I'll be more careful in my wording in the future... live and learn

 

[dmaxd2500]

Thanks for the info guys. I'll probably run the stocker this season and then do something different this summer so she's ready for next season. Good info. As far as outperforming my buddies, they all ride xp's so it's not too hard as it is.......