Polaris Gizmo

[Outlaw]

Great questions as always.
SLEDHOOLIGAN- You do have a way with words. As for testing we have been doing just that for a while now. Try something, Take it out, Burn it down, Try something else. That is how we finally perfected the Enhancement Kit. Thanks for the post.

JAYNELSON- Your welcome, No body said it would be easy. If it was everybody would do it.
The cold shot is not a Polaris specific problem. It just happens to be the one that we deal with the most so that is what we started on. Since the birth of the Enhancement Kit for the Polaris we have been researching the Ski Doo And Cat. They do not have an inline stopping the cold shot. It is a direct shot from the coolers to the water pump. The Polaris seems to have the most problem with it due to the tolerance between the cylinder and the piston and how the water jackets are routed. We have heard of and seen some of the Ski Doo's that one could say seized due to a cold shot. I think there was a few mentioned it on this forum. Until we can test and verify this will be for the Polaris sleds only. We will be testing on the new and old Doo and Cat in December.

As always thanks for the comments, Keep them coming. Everybody have a great thanksgiving and be safe if your traveling. If your riding this weekend watch your temps it is a real eye opener when you realize how far they drop.
Thanks
T

 

[minus40]

Great questions as always.
SLEDHOOLIGAN- You do have a way with words. As for testing we have been doing just that for a while now. Try something, Take it out, Burn it down, Try something else. That is how we finally perfected the Enhancement Kit. Thanks for the post.

JAYNELSON- Your welcome, No body said it would be easy. If it was everybody would do it.
The cold shot is not a Polaris specific problem. It just happens to be the one that we deal with the most so that is what we started on. Since the birth of the Enhancement Kit for the Polaris we have been researching the Ski Doo And Cat. They do not have an inline stopping the cold shot. It is a direct shot from the coolers to the water pump. The Polaris seems to have the most problem with it due to the tolerance between the cylinder and the piston and how the water jackets are routed. We have heard of and seen some of the Ski Doo's that one could say seized due to a cold shot. I think there was a few mentioned it on this forum. Until we can test and verify this will be for the Polaris sleds only. We will be testing on the new and old Doo and Cat in December.

As always thanks for the comments, Keep them coming. Everybody have a great thanksgiving and be safe if your traveling. If your riding this weekend watch your temps it is a real eye opener when you realize how far they drop.
Thanks
T

I'm feeling a little left out since you ignored my previous comment so I'll ask some questions this time.

In post #51 “As far as the cooling system we have had several hundred of the 800's torn down and we could see were the edge of the cylinder had contacted the piston.”
That’s impressive you must sell a lot of 800’s!
Anyway where would this edge be exactly? Have a pic? And how did “cold shot” produce this?

The bolded part of your statement implies that the piston clearance is pretty tight.
So a "cold shot" quickly uses up that clearance and we have piston scuffing and seizing.
What did you determine the average cylinder clearance to be on the 800? How much does “cold shot” contract the cylinder?
Seems to me I recall excessive piston clearance on the 08 model. Yet these also have scuffing and seizures?

Everyone that I have heard of has their 800 seize up long after their sled’s cooling system has stabilized at a constant temp, could be hours later. How does the “gizmo” prevent this?

Would you expand a little further on your previous answer to Mountainhorse? Any one I have ridden varies very little in coolant temps unless I run in drastically changing (low) snow conditions. The coolant just gets hotter then slowly comes down in more favorable cooling conditions. I fail to see the constantly changing temps from 125-170 as you mention in post #33. I think you give a little too much credit to the cooling system to “cold shot” fully heated coolant.
So when you run the engine at constant 160 degrees coolant temp how does this affect the timing and fuel mapping if Polaris has optimized them for their rated running temp? Have your dyno tests found we get the same power at both temps?
If the pipe temp gets above the “trigger” point and the ecu starts to compensate, would this be partly responsible for some of the “gizmo” burn down prevention qualities?
Should be easy to data log the injector load percentage to check this.

I have seen pistons that have only gone a few hundred miles all scuffed up and pistons from the same sled go a couple thousand and look great with the addition of a fuel controller fixing the lean areas. Same result as you claim.
If the “gizmo” is the cure how would you explain this?

You developed this to prevent burn downs.
So how confident (warranty?) are you in the product for preventing burn down on a totally stock 2009 2010 Polaris 800 with good snow conditions? Can I run the sled from 4750rpm to 6500 with 5-20% throttle and not burn down?

 

[Outlaw]

MINUS40- I did not mean to ignore your post. It looked like a statement.
So in regards to your many questions.
From 2008 thru 2010 we sold 180 800 sleds. To clarify, we did not tear each one of them down but had many units torn down multiple times.
The edge that I am refering to is the intake side of the piston. It is contacting the bottom edge of the piston as the cylinder contracts with the cold shot. Yes I have pictures and will post them from my other computer.
On the 2008-2009 models the cylinders were thinner. They also had a single ring piston. This allowed for piston rock plus adding the cold shot to a thinner cylinder and you had your seizing problem. In the 2010 Model the cylinder is thicker. When they came out with the thicker cylinder it did extend engine life by a few hundred miles. The piston cylinder clearance on the 2010 is roughly 6 thousands. If you study metal expansion and contraction you will see metal can contract 27 thousands with a 100 degree temperature change. That is how the cold shot scuffs the pistons.
First off the current design will not allow the cooling sytem to stabilize. The cold shot occures when the sled is stopped and the coolant is super cooled in the tunnel.
It is not the cold shot while the sled is being ridden. The cold shot is when the sled has stopped for 5 to 10 minutes or longer.
If all your sensors are giving your ECU feedback, regardless of engine temp it should compensate for any situation.
Dyno test are pending. We are waiting for the manufactured product to install and dyno.
With the Enhancement Kit installed we are not hitting the trigger point, We have seen 1100 degrees on our EGTs. With the Enhancement Kit on, we maintain a more consistant engine temperature. If every thing stays consistant all the sensors and the ECU also stay consistant.
The data log will come with the dyno run.
Our idea behind the Enhancement Kit is to stop the cold shot, enhance the runabilty, engine life and horsepower without installing aftermarket fuel controllers that do not stop the cold shot.
We have a warranty against manufacture defect. If the Gizmo fails we will send you a new one. We have 2000 miles on one of our protype units without fail.

As always thanks for the comments and questions.
Have a great Thanksgiving.
T

 

[mountainhorse]

Some thoughts to chew on while you are digesting all that Turkey.

In the efforts to make our sleds lighter and more compact, Polaris designed an awesome motor...It is certainly light and compact.

One of the design compromises in this is to make a motor with a large stroke but a short overall height... which leads to a high rod angularity (rod length to stroke ratio [RLtS ratio])

A shorter rod increases the maximum rod angle to the cylinder bore centerline. More rod angle will increase piston side loading; there will be more friction and more bore wear with a short rod motor.

It is not just as simple as making the rods longer either as this ratio also effects piston dwell at TDC and overall port timing/efficiencies...Case "stuffing" can become an issue with a longer rods/same stroke... Ring flutter also is a consideration as piston acceleration changes with different RLtS ratios

It is a fine balancing act that has no simple solution... longer rods/pistons have more rotating mass and other considerations in regards to dynamic balance.

I believe this high rod angularity in the CFi -800 motors to be a factor in the wear discussed here... which may make them more sensitive to the "flash" cooling of the cylinder jackets refered to.

The IQR 600 motors that share the same crankshaft/stroke but have a much smaller bore don't seem to have the same problems... piston length compared to bore is a more stable ratio.... the pistons don't rock in the bore as much and don't seem as prone to the wear.

A couple of IQR owners that have done the 800-monoblock conversion that I know have more piston skirt wear with the 800 bore than they did with the smaller bores.

From what I have seen... the 700 and 600 CFi/HO motors do not have the wear issues as those found in the 800 CFi's.

This product may help with a problem that is exacerbated by the extremes of the 800 CFi Design.

Some very good problem solving can come from the aftermarket... a bit of distance from the problem and looking at it with "different eyes" can be a benefit in many ways... Large corporations often hire outside consultants to help "fix" problems when a fresh perspective can be helpful.

The engineering concepts behind this "Gizmo" seem sound. Lets see as they get in the consumers hands how they work.

IMO, the new motors don't seem to have the same issues as the previous years that were updated... Time will tell, but I'm very confident in this new 800 power plant.

 

[minus40]

MINUS40- I did not mean to ignore your post. It looked like a statement.
So in regards to your many questions.
From 2008 thru 2010 we sold 180 800 sleds. To clarify, we did not tear each one of them down but had many units torn down multiple times.
The edge that I am refering to is the intake side of the piston. It is contacting the bottom edge of the piston as the cylinder contracts with the cold shot. Yes I have pictures and will post them from my other computer.
On the 2008-2009 models the cylinders were thinner. They also had a single ring piston. This allowed for piston rock plus adding the cold shot to a thinner cylinder and you had your seizing problem. In the 2010 Model the cylinder is thicker. When they came out with the thicker cylinder it did extend engine life by a few hundred miles. The piston cylinder clearance on the 2010 is roughly 6 thousands. If you study metal expansion and contraction you will see metal can contract 27 thousands with a 100 degree temperature change. That is how the cold shot scuffs the pistons.
First off the current design will not allow the cooling sytem to stabilize. The cold shot occures when the sled is stopped and the coolant is super cooled in the tunnel.
It is not the cold shot while the sled is being ridden. The cold shot is when the sled has stopped for 5 to 10 minutes or longer.
If all your sensors are giving your ECU feedback, regardless of engine temp it should compensate for any situation.
Dyno test are pending. We are waiting for the manufactured product to install and dyno.
With the Enhancement Kit installed we are not hitting the trigger point, We have seen 1100 degrees on our EGTs. With the Enhancement Kit on, we maintain a more consistant engine temperature. If every thing stays consistant all the sensors and the ECU also stay consistant.
The data log will come with the dyno run.
Our idea behind the Enhancement Kit is to stop the cold shot, enhance the runabilty, engine life and horsepower without installing aftermarket fuel controllers that do not stop the cold shot.
We have a warranty against manufacture defect. If the Gizmo fails we will send you a new one. We have 2000 miles on one of our protype units without fail.

As always thanks for the comments and questions.
Have a great Thanksgiving.
T

Thanks for the reply, I did have a lot of questions. Looking forward to the pics and dyno results.
From what I can gather we still are going to have some pretty lean problem areas that can seize the engine. Doesn't sound like you recommend a fuel controller.
I would hate to install the gizmo to prevent burn downs and have that exact problem anyway due to fueling issues.
Do you recommend the gizmo only? If so how does that help the fueling issues?

 

[Outlaw]

MOUNTAIN HORSE- Thanks for jumping in with the specs. Great information for every one.

MINUS40- We have found that we do not have the lean spot with the Enhancement Kit. The conclusion that we came to is the ECU is not leaning it out due to temperature varation. We do not and will not have a fuel controller on any of the test sleds. The test sleds have the Enhancement Kit and the latest map from Polaris other than that they are bone stock.







Again, Thanks for the comments. Keep them coming.
Happy Thanksgiving
Watch your temps.
T

 

[wyofreeride]

Outlaw, is 'the latest map' something different than the new stuff is shipping with, and if so, do you know what has changed?

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

 

[Outlaw]

Wyofreeride- The 2011 has a totally different map due to the different injector system. The map that we run on the test sled is the 2008 thru 2010 updated map. We are running the last one that they released to the dealers.

Took the test Pro 163 out to Togwatee today. Found a few things to climb.
The stock pro does great. In the Picture the sled above me is a Turboed 800. But the stock pro with the Enhancement Kit could almost get to him. Great day. Everything came home in one piece. Still a few stumps and rocks.

 

[Abc]

If i undertand well the gizmo make an "imitation" of a reverse flow cooling system as seen in some cars..?

 

[skibreeze]

I did pay attention to my temps yesterday and had quite a few breaks to let it cool down. The normal temp is 126 and the lowest it dropped to when restarting was 99. I don't see this as a huge "shock" to the motor.

 

[IdahoPowderHound]

Skibreeze- You will not always see the big drop in temps. Even on my 700 turbo i saw my temps running consistanly in the 120 range but would drop to 88 degrees when stopped for just a few min. Other 800 i have seen run at 140 and drop to 90 deg.

 

[goforbroke]

I'm skeptical, but you have provided good answers. My problem is the price. I understand you have some R&D, but $300 bucks for a thermastat, clamps and a hose is steep. At $100 I'd say you still have 300% profit margin and I'd be buying, at $300 and ify if it voids my warranty, I'll wait to see if engine failures occur on the pro like they did previous years.

 

[Outlaw]

I am glad to see folks are watching there temps.
Just to clear a few things up. Some of the posts that are on snowest regarding running temps refer to what temp the sled is running while on the trail or out in the deep. On the new pro you are seeing 160 Degrees and pulling over. The Polaris shop Manual for the 600 and 800 Pro states that the temp light will come on at 230 degrees at an Idle 185 Degrees WOT. The hot lamp will flash and you will get an RPM Misfire at 239 degrees at an Idle, and 208 degrees WOT. So for those that are worried about the 160 running temp on the new Pro, Don't.
What we are doing is stopping the Cold Shot at startup after a short break and equalizing the system for optimal temperature the rest of the time.
I have read several posts that state they have no cold shot.
Any varation in temperature from the coolers to the hot engine is a cold shot. Some are minor and some are severe. Metal will always contract and expand regardless of the temperature change.

ABC- We are not reversing or trying to imitate. We are equalizing the cooling system and controlling the coolant flow from the tunnel back into the engine by installing the inline unit.

SKIBREEZE- After you have been running around in the powder what is your temp when you shut it down? Then after 5 minutes or so as SOON as you start your sled and you have heat soak, what is your temp? You state that 126 is your shutdown, Heat soak to 140 or 145 then drop to 99. That contracts your cylinder approx 12 thousands with a piston/cylinder clearance of 6 thousands. Try that, then check out this site.
http://www.sciencebyjones.com/expansion_contraction.htm

IDAHOPOWDERHOUND- Thanks for jumping in. We need to get out and do some more testing soon. Thanks for watching your temps, sure is a drastic difference in temps from stock to one with the Enhancement Kit.

GOFORBROKE- Sorry about the price, but unless you are the one putting out the money to produce the kit and pay for all the neccessary molds frankly you have no idea what we have into this project or our profit margin. We started this to fix a problem for the Polaris Owners and we have. Just watch your temps on your pro. They do cold shot. I wish you the best of luck.
Remember, Weight Broke The Wagon

We will be shipping the first week of December as soon as we get our first shipment. We are on a first come first serve basis and have several hundred orders to fill locally. Like the web site says.
Don't Get Left In The Cold.
Keep your thoughts coming.
Thanks
T

 

[klizzy]

i don't know about you guys, but I'd gladly take and extra 10, 15, hell maybe 20lbs on these sleds if they built them like they used to. If the motor was built thicker and heavier then would this "cold shot" have anywhere near the affect on it. They're making things lighter and faster, but when will they draw the line and see that now it's affecting durabilty and longevity

 

[Outlaw]

The 2010 and 2011 motor is the thicker cylinder. And it does still get the cold shot. If you will read back in the post you will see that the 2008 and 09 had the thinner cylinder. The updated 2010 had a thicker cylinder that was Polaris's idea of a fix. It did extend engine life but only by a few hundred miles.
Thanks
T

 

[TimG]

Either way, thanks to Outlaw for the detailed explanations and putting up with our concerns/questions/BS.

If I could throw one more question in the mix; how is this "cold shot" a Polaris specific issue? All brands use a tunnel mounted cooler system of slightly different designs, and logic would dictate that all would allow coolant temp in said coolers to drop while parked. Do other brands have a bypass such as your's as factory equipment? Or is the Polaris motor just more sensitive to this issue?

Forgive me if this was answered already; I read through the last 50 posts in a hurry. But it does seem that if cold shot is a problem on these sleds, it would be a problem for pretty well every liquid cooled sled ever created. Why isn't this a problem for other sleds? Is it just that the Polaris cylinder is so thin? Does the rod to stroke ratio play a large part in it?

 

[minus40]

MINUS40- We have found that we do not have the lean spot with the Enhancement Kit. The conclusion that we came to is the ECU is not leaning it out due to temperature varation. We do not and will not have a fuel controller on any of the test sleds. The test sleds have the Enhancement Kit and the latest map from Polaris other than that they are bone stock.View attachment 121239

View attachment 121240

View attachment 121241

View attachment 121242

Again, Thanks for the comments. Keep them coming.
Happy Thanksgiving
Watch your temps.
T

That is a great product, fixes the lean areas as well. If a person had invested in a fuel controller you could sell it and recoup a lot of the money to pay for the gizmo.

 

[Outlaw]

TimG- This is copied from post 61. Any other questions feel free to post them.

The cold shot is not a Polaris specific problem. It just happens to be the one that we deal with the most so that is what we started on. Since the birth of the Enhancement Kit for the Polaris we have been researching the Ski Doo And Cat. They do not have an inline stopping the cold shot. It is a direct shot from the coolers to the water pump. The Polaris seems to have the most problem with it due to the tolerance between the cylinder and the piston and how the water jackets are routed. We have heard of and seen some of the Ski Doo's that one could say seized due to a cold shot. I think there was a few mentioned it on this forum. Until we can test and verify this will be for the Polaris sleds only. We will be testing on the new and old Doo and Cat in December.

MINUS40- Thanks for understanding. Glad to see you have come around to our way of thinking

We are getting closer every day to getting our first order in. Keep an eye on the website we will be updating it when we are able to start shipping. We are still planning on shipping the product out on Tuesday December 7.
As always
watch your temps at restart and keep the comments coming.
Thanks
T

 

[minus40]

MINUS40- Thanks for understanding. Glad to see you have come around to our way of thinking

We are getting closer every day to getting our first order in. Keep an eye on the website we will be updating it when we are able to start shipping. We are still planning on shipping the product out on Tuesday December 7.
As always
watch your temps at restart and keep the comments coming.
Thanks
T

It,s all good. I hope I don,t run into a tree what with all the paranoia of watching the temps now. Some one better market a HUD so I can keep an eye on coolant, egt, tach, 02, mph and whatever the next thing is gonna be.

 

[Outlaw]

It,s all good. I hope I don,t run into a tree what with all the paranoia of watching the temps now. Some one better market a HUD so I can keep an eye on coolant, egt, tach, 02, mph and whatever the next thing is gonna be.

To funny, When you do I want to see the video. You will like it. After the first ride you will see all you have to do is ride the thing and stop watching your readouts. Maybe you should call Oakley and have them build some HUD goggles.