Performance Suspension Setup

[bryceraisanen]

Ive been intrigued by the suspension chatter for awhile now. Have done tons of searching and reading and watched every YouTube video I can find on timbersled kmod ezryde and some other ones. I understand the theory of coupling. What I am trying to figure out, is how EXACTLY one of said rear skids is going to increase performance. Will a timbersled highmark a stock skid 9 outta 10 times? Would I be able to whip cookies better or carve better? See I was under the impression that mountain sleds are uncoupled so that the skid can follow the terrain better, thereby having more flotation and better traction. But all the aftermarket skids are coupled; and I thought coupled was for bashing whooped out trails here in MN and MI. Im eyeballing a timbersled skid, but before I get too jumpy, I would like to have some input as to where exactly I will see a performance gain.

The only problem I could tell with my stock rmk rear suspension, was that it would bottom out on me too easily. But that could be taken care of with valving. I do not have any real suspension tuning experience. I know how to create more wheelie action (transfer) and also how to create less. What I do NOT know, is how to know when its right.

Reading through the threads, everyone who owns one says "Love my XYZ suspension setup it kix a$$!!" But what they do NOT say, is WHY. What makes it so good? Cause u dont bottom any more? Cause you can ditch ur buddy in the trees? Can go down whooped out trails at 70mph? U highmark everyone else? Cause it cost 3000 bucks and u dang well better like it?

I do not know enough about suspension setups to know what I am missing out on. I have never owned an aftermarket setup. For the most part, I just set the preloads according to the manual and ride, unless I know someone is having a wheelie contest, in which case I would crank the front track shock. But i am a permanent student in the study of sledding, and I'm gonna have a PHd in the topic (suspension) before the first flake comes next fall, thanks to you guys of course.

Sometimes I wonder if its like a chevy/gmc thing. Theyre both gonna get you to work an back, and haul some tools, maybe even pull the boat. But ones gonna be waaay more stylin than the other and maybe have chrome wheels???



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[ak]

Better shocks on the stock skid is hard to beat in my opinion, it's hard to beat for deep snow performance.

 

[philsummers21]

I have a timbersled and like it. The most noticeable gain is in deep snow on a hill. It will stay planted and not wheelie increasing traction and speed and yes will high mark a stock sled. Easy adjustability, less snow build up and lighter weight are the other benefits.

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[philsummers21]

Better shocks help a stock skid but they don't perform as well as the coupled skids. Buddy has raptors all around and they are awesome shocks but still likes to wheelie and trench.

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[rmscustom]

My stock skid works good, especially after I revalved for my weight. Definitely don't have wheelie or trenching problems and works good all around.

But I've been thinking about doing the timbersled rear arm kit. My understanding of it is you can have it set for a more playful front end (more "wheelie" action and faster handling in the trees). Then on deep days or if you need to get out of a hole just crank up the coupling and away you go.

 

[Danny Dangles]

The stock skid is a very nice setup, with proper shocks I would see no need to change it, with a stock machine. Now throw a turbo on and the stock skid is completely overwhelmed, washing out, wheelie monster etc. It was as good of an upgrade on my sled as the turbo itself, transformed it overnight. I am running the timbersled, and you can really notice the coupling adjustment, all the way out for the trail, 3ish turns in for boondocking, sledding bliss.

For the record the only reason I went with the full skid instead of the rear arm/shock was I blew my front skid shock and I had iceage rails (not the stock pro.)

 

[philsummers21]

Better shocks help a stock skid but they don't perform as well as the coupled skids. Buddy has raptors all around and they are awesome shocks but still likes to wheelie and trench.

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FWIW. Both mine and buddies were turbod. I recently pulled my turbo and trying a different route but its still noticeable how much less mine trenches and gets on the snow.

 

[geo]

A better suspension is better at everything you used as examples BR.

Coupling adds another dimension of control because all 900 lbs of sled and rider pivot on that suspension. I have coupling but only use it maybe 20% of the time yet still enjoy the better shocks and change it the rise rate.
Even with a 9000 lb truck and only 3" of travel a better shock can be felt in ride and handling.

To quantify that is very subjective, like clutching lol, but I'm sure it can be measured some way. It just most don't go out to measure and quantify.

Soon you will have to add flex and no flex lol by the looks of it. To lock it out or not to lock it out may soon be a topic lol.

So which shocks, clicker or no clicker, springs or air, sway bar or no sway bar, couple or don`t couple, rising rate or falling rate, twist or don`t twist,,, lol where will it end!!
It`s always ended, for me, at my wallet. Like investing, don`t put in any more than you can lose lol, cause stock is always fun too.

 

[bryceraisanen]

The stock skid is a very nice setup, with proper shocks I would see no need to change it, with a stock machine. Now throw a turbo on and the stock skid is completely overwhelmed, washing out, wheelie monster etc. It was as good of an upgrade on my sled as the turbo itself, transformed it overnight. I am running the timbersled, and you can really notice the coupling adjustment, all the way out for the trail, 3ish turns in for boondocking, sledding bliss.

For the record the only reason I went with the full skid instead of the rear arm/shock was I blew my front skid shock and I had iceage rails (not the stock pro.)

First off thanks for the replys everyone.

I can see how the turbo application would hugely overpower the rear rear shock and steering with skis in the air is tricky. An by the time u stiffened the rear rear enough to keep the skis down, ride quality would basically suck?

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[bryceraisanen]

A better suspension is better at everything you used as examples BR.

Coupling adds another dimension of control because all 900 lbs of sled and rider pivot on that suspension. I have coupling but only use it maybe 20% of the time yet still enjoy the better shocks and change it the rise rate.
Even with a 9000 lb truck and only 3" of travel a better shock can be felt in ride and handling.

To quantify that is very subjective, like clutching lol, but I'm sure it can be measured some way. It just most don't go out to measure and quantify.

Soon you will have to add flex and no flex lol by the looks of it. To lock it out or not to lock it out may soon be a topic lol.

So only 20% of the time, u adjust something in ur skid to make it couple? Like when ur lining up on a gnarly chute?

Or, u have your rear rear set to work independently for 80% of its travel, and couple for the last 20%?

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[Danny Dangles]

First off thanks for the replys everyone.

I can see how the turbo application would hugely overpower the rear rear shock and steering with skis in the air is tricky. An by the time u stiffened the rear rear enough to keep the skis down, ride quality would basically suck?

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Dialing up preload in the suspension is not the way to compensate for a overwhelmed suspension. Preload is only used to setup your sag, for different rider weights. Adding more/less preload will only change ride height, and shift the range you are using of the shock absorber. There are limits of how much you can increase/decrease preload for this reason.

Increasing Preload does not increase the spring rate, the spring is linear!

Therefore increasing preload will not 'stiffen' the spring, it will move your suspension into the proper range for your shock absorber to operate within.

 

[bryceraisanen]

I was referring to stiffening the rear with valving, not preload.

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[Danny Dangles]

Fair enough, but your still only controlling the rate at which the spring is storing and releasing energy. The rear of the skid still moves independently of the front rather than the desired coupling where they move together (speaking from a higher than stock HP application.) Having the ability to control coupling gives you the best of both worlds, good bump absorption (independent movement) on the trail, control of ski lift off (coupled movement.)

 

[tdblakes]

so in a stock machine, if a coupling skid is better overall, why wouldnt the factory install one from the start? Coupled skids are nothing new so its not like uncharted territory... and for that matter, if a coupling skid was so much more impressive in climbing and whoops and getting pounded on, why wouldn't the Assault get one since it is the "stock hillclimb race sled"?

 

[Danny Dangles]

I didn't say a coupled skid was better at all on whoops/trail. It is in fact worse (from my experience.) The timbersled skid is 10%-80% coupling adjustable. I run mine 10% coupled (all the way out on adjustment) on the trail and add about 30-40% coupling for bookdocking. Like anything the Pro has to be rideable in all situations. A coupled skid would not be desirable for a lot of situations. Just as a uncoupled skid is not desirable for certain situations.

 

[bryceraisanen]

Ok, so u unload the sled and hammer down the trail to the playground. Stop real quick and get underneath the sled to make an adjustment before the real boondockin fun starts? This is not a sarcastic question. I'm just wondering, cause most the time I'm only on the trail for about 10 minutes and could really give a sh!t about trail manners... Now I can see if you have to bash moguls for an hour to get to your spot, having the adjustment would really pay off. But just generally speaking I don't seem to have to trail ride that far...

 

[BILTIT]

We have some spots which require 28km of trail to get to the good stuff. When you have 200 sleds going over that trail in a day, you would care how it rides on the trails. One friend has a 174x3 on a timbersled skid and he can fly by all of us on the trails, he is always waiting on us. Granted the longer length probably helps alot VS just the coupling.

 

[Danny Dangles]

Ok, so u unload the sled and hammer down the trail to the playground. Stop real quick and get underneath the sled to make an adjustment before the real boondockin fun starts? This is not a sarcastic question. I'm just wondering, cause most the time I'm only on the trail for about 10 minutes and could really give a sh!t about trail manners... Now I can see if you have to bash moguls for an hour to get to your spot, having the adjustment would really pay off. But just generally speaking I don't seem to have to trail ride that far...

Yessir, most of the areas we ride in are unmaintained trails, 20-45km of hell sometimes. Leave the skid completely uncoupled for the trail (noticeably better,) then drop fuel and turn the coupling up! I don't use more than one setting, no time for that, but use a middle ground that only needs a tad more when poking the steepest trees.

Leaving a sled fully coupled on the trail is not a good idea, you could end up bending the tunnel. Though if you were only riding 10km of groomed you would have no problem leaving it at the coupled setting I use.

Trail manners really don't matter, its the coupling that I was after.

 

[geo]

Don't know where you want this to go BR. You don't HAVE to buy suspension. Most don't. But if your interested,,,,.

Most people who have been using coupling for a long time (in the mountains) use it to control ski lift (more control and more of the HP moving you forward) because of HP added and at lot of "going up".
The side benefit for some is the better trail ride from better shocks and added bottoming resistance from a rising rate shock to arm ratio. Both these benefits also help "off trail" too. Even if your not just going up. Suspension does make a difference in performance and effort used in the trees as well.

Coupling-better shocks doesn't come stock because it costs more, adds weight, needs stronger tunnel, more instructions in the owners manual, more pictures in the brouchers and stock is just fine.
Some people just want more than just fine.

Are you adding power to your sled, clutching it to use the power? Stock is just fine you know.
Properly setup suspension, especially in deep snow, may perform better though. You also have the option of a better track. It may show better performance too. Or maybe gearing for your altitude is enough.
Put it all together though (correctly lol) and it is special.

Seems to me that you are trying to figure out if there is any benefit for you. I think you need to ride one to be sure.

 

[bryceraisanen]

Don't know where you want this to go BR. You don't HAVE to buy suspension. Most don't. But if your interested,,,,.

Most people who have been using coupling for a long time (in the mountains) use it to control ski lift (more control and more of the HP moving you forward) because of HP added and at lot of "going up".
The side benefit for some is the better trail ride from better shocks and added bottoming resistance from a rising rate shock to arm ratio. Both these benefits also help "off trail" too. Even if your not just going up. Suspension does make a difference in performance and effort used in the trees as well.

Coupling-better shocks doesn't come stock because it costs more, adds weight, needs stronger tunnel, more instructions in the owners manual, more pictures in the brouchers and stock is just fine.
Some people just want more than just fine.

Are you adding power to your sled, clutching it to use the power? Stock is just fine you know.
Properly setup suspension, especially in deep snow, may perform better though. You also have the option of a better track. It may show better performance too. Or maybe gearing for your altitude is enough.
Put it all together though (correctly lol) and it is special.

Seems to me that you are trying to figure out if there is any benefit for you. I think you need to ride one to be sure.

I do not have a specific direction I am trying to take this. The main thing for the moment is to unearth as much information as I can on the subject, absorb said information, and use it as a tool to defeat my riding buddies, in as many situations as possible (all in good fun). Just like I would like to sit you down (yes you GEO) an not let you leave until u divulge ALL of your knowledge in the clutching department. See, I know enough about clutching (I think), to recognize when someone (you) is a few steps ahead of the competition.
I'm just a lowly construction worker after all, and I wanna be able to embarass (all in good fun here) other sleds that people have 3x the money into. I dont have the money to spend on goodies that some people do, but with knowledge comes power. Just say hypothetically I got 3000 dollars to sink into the sled this year. Where would that money be best allocated? A lot of people can rattle off a list that'll spend that money in 5 seconds. But I don't wanna only know each thing to buy, I want to know why, what makes it work and in what specific situations, what are the geometric calculations behind said setup, what are potential drawbacks to it? Even if I was rich, I would still want to know and still do everything myself. Just like learning I guess. My wife calls me a 'tinkerer' cause I take everything apart just to see how it works.

Sooo, suspension is what I'm researching for now. It would be sweet to ride a bunch of sleds back to back with different setups, but unfortunately none of my buddies r really "into" it so to speak. They're just gas an oil types.


What you said, "Put it all together and it is special." THAT is what I wanna do (emphasis on the 'special'). Figure it all out so that whatever mods a guy does, they compliment the other ones. To find the right combo, instead of just scatter brained bolt ons that may or may not work well with each other. I want to build one that is "special" and then ride it for a long time.

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