Outer/inner jack shaft bearing replacement

[Frostbite]

Thank you ninemiler.

Should I go ahead and change both drive shaft bearing since I am already pulling the drive shaft?

However, if I do go with the Timbersled double bearing option I may have to send you my driveshaft (with drivers removed, right?) to be able to use this option.

 

[cowboy2]

Great thread.
Sorting out the bearing issue must be the n.1 priority for owners of used kits.

Nice to see TS addressing the issue with a side-by-side mounted housing. Will certainly last far longer but also heavy n´expensive to upgrade.

I believe it´s accepted that bearings are failing through misalignment due to

1. Drive panel flex
2. Deformed panels from stumps/rocks etc
3. Bearing housing misplacement due worn mounting holes


The TS bearing solution has addressed point 3 above, with the updated panels hopefully mitigating against point 2. Might be a heavy-handed approach though.

Necessity is the mother of invention, and industry have long ago recognised the need for self-aligning bearings. They nicely cater for the issues we´ve got.

1205 is a direct replacement for the stock 6205 ítems, and 2205 is slightly wider and probably a better idea. Needs some minor engineering work on the standard housing/spacers as per 9Milers´ solution.

Having now been stranded a few times, I´m paranoid about these damn bearings so have been checking mine regularly with occasional housing alignment checks. 50 hours so far, all turning smooth as silk. All sprocket still good. Granted, not a perfect indicator of reliability but only time will tell..Maybe this is a cheaper and more importantly, reliable option for some of us out there?

 

[Frostbite]

Cowboy2, tell us more about the 1205 and 2205 bearings please.

Why are they better? Who makes them? Are they readily available?

I get the impression that the 1205 is a direct replacement for a 6205 and it would take some bearing housing machine work to be able to use the wider 2205 bearing?

Looking at all these bearing brands on E-bay is like alphabet soup. No kidding I have seen:
KYK, NSK, SKF, NTN, WJB, ZKL, NDH, MGM and RHP.

Which ones are American made and which one are the best? I did see SKF mentioned by ninemiler above, so I have to assume they are good?

 

[torkd]

Cowboy2, tell us more about the 1205 and 2205 bearings please.

Why are they better? Who makes them? Are they readily available?

I get the impression that the 1205 is a direct replacement for a 6205 and it would take some bearing housing machine work to be able to use the wider 2205 bearing?

Looking at all these bearing brands on E-bay is like alphabet soup. No kidding I have seen:
KYK, NSK, SKF, NTN, WJB, ZKL, NDH, MGM and RHP.

Which ones are American made and which one are the best? I did see SKF mentioned by ninemiler above, so I have to assume they are good?

Frostbite, I just did my lower drive shaft bearings last night it is super easy actually, didn't even have to loosen the track. When you get the bearings out of the housing there is a spacer on each side of the bearing be sure to put them back in.

I ran into problems on my top jack shaft (where my actual bearing failure was) one of the spacers was completely chewed away by the failed bearing. I'm now on the hunt today to find one, hopefully the bearing shop has them.

Also is there anything special you have to do once everything is put back together to make sure everything is straight and true?

Thanks again guys,

 

[Frostbite]

Torkd, thanks... pictures?

I guess I am a visual learner.

Once I see how everything is supposed to look it will be much easier.

 

[9Miler]

wont find them at a bearing store 1 they are SS 2 they are 25mm id spacer from sprocket to bearing is .452 wide spacer from bearing to inner sprocket is 1.910 have a machine shop make you one steel will work

 

[torkd]

wont find them at a bearing store 1 they are SS 2 they are 25mm id spacer from sprocket to bearing is .452 wide spacer from bearing to inner sprocket is 1.910 have a machine shop make you one steel will work

Well that makes things difficult for a stupid spacer lol.

 

[dirtrebel]

add washer

I use a lot of spacer washers on my stuff. I buy 1 inch bore machine spacer washers at the local hardwarwe store, they are like 1 inch inside by x 1 1/8 or 1 1/4 outside. shorten the original spacer by the required amount to add washer to make the overall length back to original. they are also similar to Polaris secondary clutch shim washers, available at Polaris dealers. p.s. just measured it it measures 25.45 mm inside diameter, so should fit a 25 mm shaft even though its for 1 inch.

 

[9Miler]

piece of 1" water pipe hacksaw and a file will work, I am sorry I have a machine shop so I guess it is to easy for me LOL oh yes and Harbor Frt calipers

 

[kell8071]

Machine out the shoulder make a S'S retainer plate shorten spacers 500.00 I will convert all 4 bearings to 5205 double bearings don't even have to take kit off bike price includes all parts except if shafts are worn.

6205 - 25x52x15
5205 - 25x52x20.6

How thick is the shoulder on the aluminum bearing holder? Can you machine 5.6mm out of it, space the bearing holders inboard using AL .22 sheet and machine down the inner bearing spacers the same amount?

I would think the angular contact bearings would hold up to side loads much better.

Kell

 

[9Miler]

WOW someone finally understands PM me I will fill you in.

 

[torkd]

WOW someone finally understands PM me I will fill you in.

Haha I don't know squat about machining or fabricating. Just want to ride... Got the whole job complete tonight, hopefully she holds up. I should also add having two people makes the process much easier!!

 

[cowboy2]

Cowboy2, tell us more about the 1205 and 2205 bearings please.

Why are they better? Who makes them? Are they readily available?

I get the impression that the 1205 is a direct replacement for a 6205 and it would take some bearing housing machine work to be able to use the wider 2205 bearing?

Looking at all these bearing brands on E-bay is like alphabet soup. No kidding I have seen:
KYK, NSK, SKF, NTN, WJB, ZKL, NDH, MGM and RHP.

Which ones are American made and which one are the best? I did see SKF mentioned by ninemiler above, so I have to assume they are good?

Hi FB.

* Self-aligning bearing info stolen from SKF website - Two rolls of balls and a common sphered raceway in the outer ring. The bearings are consequently self-aligning and insensitive to shaft deflections and angular misalignment of the shaft relative to the housing.

* Bearing 1205 is self-aligning, same size as 6205 and a direct replacement.

* For extra meat, bearing 2205 has same ID and OD as 6205, but wider. 18mm vs 15mm. Machine 3mm out of the aluminium bearing housing, and shorten outer spacers by 3mm. Or without machining, press them in with retaining locktite, omit the circlip and shorten inner spacer.

* 99% of manufacturers list self aligning bearings. They´re readily available but less common so more expensive. They are perfect for our application as they allow for misalignment, which is what is killing our bearings. The problem is well documented. http://www.mt-online.com/december2002/understanding-shaft-alignment-basics

* SKF is known for quality, although they only make big sized bearings themselves. They contract out for the smaller bearings, then sell with SKF branding.

* I´ve had dealings with bearing companies who volunteered to supply with markings of my choice on the sides. SKF, NTN, KOYO, you name it! Counterfeit items are rife, especially on ebay. If you´re after some high quality bearings, the only option is to buy directly from a reputable bearing distributor. Bearing manufacturers have factories all over the world. American made vs Jap vs German makes no difference.

* But our application doesn´t even come close to overloading the jackshaft/driver bearings unless they´re subject to forces they weren´t designed for. Which is why they fail prematurely. Replacing your bearings with expensive 6205 ítems from a good manufacturer won´t improve reliability, ditto adding a grease nipple as we found out. Upgrading with a fatter bearing will help, ditto installing a side-by side configuration.

* Timbersled are selling 6000 dollar kits with bearings which cost a dollar apiece. Not a problem as they should be operating at nowhere near their axial/radial load capacity. However, the unexpected misalignment isn´t catered for on the 6205s hence the constant failures. To put things into context, my self aligning 2205s from China are 10 bucks a piece. They can´t be described as high quality, but they have an easy life so don´t need to be.

 

[Frostbite]

Wow, thanks cowboy2. That is some great info!

I still haven't replaced my bad bearing yet because or the upheaval going on with these bearings. With 60 degrees in the forecast for the foreseeable future I am contemplating taking the kit off the bike and just replacing the bearings with either your 1205 or 2205 bearings or Timbersled's dual bearing housings.

I like your idea of using these double row bearings (thanks for the great explanation). However, I need a bit more explanation of your info copied below.


"For extra meat, bearing 2205 has same ID and OD as 6205, but wider. 18mm vs 15mm.

1. Machine 3mm out of the bearing shoulder,

Is this inside the bearing housing or the edges of the bearings themselves?

2. and shorten outer spacers by 3mm.

If the 2205 bearing is only 3mm wider and I removed 3mm from the bearing shoulder, why would this need to be done too?

Can this be done alone independently without messing with the bearing shoulders?

3. Or without machining, press them in with retaining locktite, omit the circlip and shorten inner spacer.

I like this idea because no machining is required but, are you loctiting the bearing inner race to the drive shaft? Also does "shortening" the inner spacer mean make it thinner?

 

[9Miler]

We have a step on the front porch, when from walking up and down on it the nails on the left side get lose. We pound them back down and a few days later they are lose again. The right side isnt coming lose even though it has the same number of nails in it. We drive 2 more nails in the left side, left side stays tight but now the right side is starting to come lose. Food for thought !
We drove 2 more nails in the right side now the board doesnt come lose.

 

[Robster]

Cowboy2 has done his homework!

I have replaced stock bearings with SKF 6205-2RSH which are double sealed bearings. Better quality than the stock ones, but as cowboy2 says. The biggest part of the problem (almost all of it actually) comes from the forces that the bearings are forced to handle that they are not built for. That comes from flexing sides and misalignment.

Ever since my first bearing breakdown I have replaced the bearings with new SKF bearings mentioned above in between every season. So far that has kept me from any more breakdowns, but I will for sure try to use the 1205 in the future. They are strong enough for our application and also built for the side flex issues. I would rather use that as a solution than using the new 2015 upgrade kit actually. Lighter and built to handle that type of forces that the bearings are facing. No shadow should fall on TS or Allen or the guys over there. They work as hard as they can to solve these kind of issues, but one cannot be an expert in all areas.

Rob

 

[Rush44]

I was just told by Timbersled that you do NOT want to use the 1205 bearings since the axles are structure to the entire kit and you will end up bending the kit with self aligning bearings. The self aligning bearings would work if the kit were made out of steel.

 

[kell8071]

Hmmm, now that TS released the cost of the bearing upgrade I think I'll just go that direction. At $150 for all the required parts (including a new drive shaft, bearings, etc..) I think I may just keep an "OEM solution" on it.

2015 MH Drive Bearing Update Kit

This update kit will fit any 2011 – 2014 Mountain Horse kit and will update your drive system to 2015 specs. The update kit will make your drive system 100% stronger and will make your axle bearings least for years. The kit includes all parts needed to properly rebuild your drive axle bearing system.

• Available 10/1/14, call to pre-order (208-255-5644)
• Limited time offer $150.00 if ordered before 12/31/14
• Kit includes: 3 Double row bearing housings with 4 bolt mounting flanges with bearings assembled in them, 1 4 bolt hole drill template for bearing installation, 1 Replacement bearing for brake disc side, 3 Locking axle bolts and washers, 4 Key ways for sprockets and brake disc, 1 Upper axle spacer to accommodate the new wider bearing, 1 Lower drive axle that is machined to accommodate the new wider bearings
• Note: Axle does not come with new drive wheels. Installer will need to Remove and Replace them from the old axle.

Kell

 

[9Miler]

That is the buy of the century, everyone who owns a kit needs to do this. 4 5205 bearings are over 100.00 alone. I am glad to see TS is fixing this problem for a minimal cost to the customer. This must just be pretty much there cost. Good Job TS I think this issue can be put to bed

 

[kell8071]

That is the buy of the century, everyone who owns a kit needs to do this. 4 5205 bearings are over 100.00 alone. I am glad to see TS is fixing this problem for a minimal cost to the customer. This must just be pretty much there cost. Good Job TS I think this issue can be put to bed

It sounds like they may actually be taking a loss to keep current customers happy and to get the word out. Either way pretty awesome deal.

Kell