o3 m5 mod suggestions

[papafinger1]

I picked up a nice m5 for my son this summer. There are a few chassis upgrades I would like to make but would like some suggestions from the professionals. Headed to hay days and trying to get a parts list together.

1. I have a set of grippers that I want to install
2. Narrow the front end. Shocks and front end suggestions would be appreciated.
3. 2" track instead of the 1.25 141"
4. ??? what other things do you guys suggest.

 

[papafinger1]

Really. Not one suggestion to help me assist my 10 year old transition to mnt riding a bit easier?


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[Bedhead]

He is 10. Pull the rope and go.

 

[firecat99]

paddle track will help, but being 10 and on a 500 pushing a 2" paddle 141 you will need clutching for sure. Ms also have the narrow front end on. Those polaris skis work well also, but being his age I cant see him really knowing much differance.

 

[Reeb]

Modding a sled to fit a 10 year old is more beneficial to the kid and his growing riding ability than most adults give them credit for. I rode a 440/500 until I was 17 years old and put those sleds in places most grown men on 600's and 670/700's had trouble. When I would hop onto my Dads sled, or his friends sleds, I was damn near unstoppable. The transition from a 440 race sled stretched to a 144 to a ground up 800 mod build was seamless because of this. Now riding was easy because before, I had to do everything with half the power. So don't let others deter you from building this sled up for your son. It very well may keep him in the sport(and on that sled) for the next 10 years.

Well when I was 10-12 years old I had a Prowler 440 and the difference between the stock steel skis and a pair of Ekholm II skis was night and day different. Same thing when I got a Summit 500 in '98. The stock skis compared to the Ekholms were the difference between being able to sidehill into spots versus doubling with my Dad as someone(or him) rode my sled into the bowl we were getting to. Let me tell you, that doubling thing didn't last long for my old man, I figured it out quick!

First off, is it a M-Series M5 or a 2003 Mountain Cat 500? I'm guessing a M5 since we are in the M-Series section.

I would look for a 2.25 Camoplast Extreme for that sled. Fits no problem and will give him a huge amount of traction. That is unless he will be riding it back home a lot. Then a 2" is more than plenty. Depending on what it has for clutching(elevation or sea level) you may have to play with the weights a bit. I do suggest you install a softer primary spring so the sled engages buttery smooth for your riding partner. Helps when learning throttle control and trying to manipulate the sled onto its side for those powder turns off trail. Leave the Diamond Drive gearing alone, it's geared plenty low.(But go ahead and change the oil and bearings in it! BDX has a great kit o do just that)

So a track and skis are the biggest priority, but you knew that already. Then comes the ability to narrow it, and lighten it.

There's a few guys selling 36.5" Alt Impact front ends in the classifieds last time I checked. This will help the kiddo out a lot. I totaled my Summit 500 the first year I had it because I couldn't get the front end to stay planted on a sidehill.(Learned how to replace a tunnel later that summer!) Having shocks serviced and new springs installed(maybe softer ones too!) is also a great investment that should be looked at in conjunction with a narrower front end.(Both front and rear shocks and torsion springs)I know there are plenty of quality shock places in the mid-west that can dial in your pal!

And buy a can for it, the weight loss may not be noticeable for him(or you for that matter) however when he's reefing on the bars to get the sled to do what he wants, it will be a difference maker for certain. The biggest weight loss for these sleds is a hood, they actually weigh a friggin ton! It's too bad BRTech doesn't do Thrasher hoods any longer. Would have been perfect for your project. The other option is to buy a vent kit and start cutting holes in the stocker. I'm also a fan of removing one headlight and just running the one side. I'm not sure if this is feasible on the Minnesota trails. Of course the best option would be to replace both headlights and run a small 5-8" lightbar mounted off the bars or mounted on the hood. Again, only if applicable on your trail system. Anything is a good thing when it comes to shedding hood/headlight weight.

One of the things I found extremely important when building my younger brother, and now my daughter sleds is that the kids can handle and manipulate the sleds much better when they are more rigid. This means the steering has to be solid, especially on these M-Series sleds which have the tendency to have sloppy steering. Canada Sled Parts(wwildchild on here) has a great set-up to strengthen the bulkhead and also tighten up the steering. Then I would look at a set of tube running boards. Of course not in everyone's budget, but if you are lucky you can find someone parting out an M that will probably sell you a set for well under half of what a new set costs. Also, bar height means a great deal to kids. I had to replace the stock bars on my brothers sled to a riser and straight bar to get the height he needed(he was short) as the stock M-Series bars just hindered him and wouldn't let him control the sled with his upper body.(Think - Hanging off a tree branch) And lastly, the seat....don't high side him simply because a newer or aftermarket seat is lighter. His ability to move around the machine means more than having him try to ride it while being stationary.

From there it's all just maintenance and having fun. Remember a new belt will help a lot too. Response means a lot more when learning how to ride more aggressively. If the sled hits too hard or barely picks up when you rev it up it'll make it much more difficult to learn how to do certain maneuvers such as the aforementioned powder turns and sidehilling technique.

If you do plan on going a little further with this sled in the future a '09+ updated rear tunnel cap and bumper is a great upgrade. Keeps the back end from becoming a shovel hindering performance in the deeper snow. And once he's familiar with the power of the 80-85hp mill and he's begging for more, doing the oil delete and running premix cleans up the bottom end quite nicely, giving a nice punch to the gut in low end power. My 440(almost the same engine, just with APV) responded well to removing the exhaust heat shielding and ceramic coating the pipe too. Not only do Cat pipes rust before they even leave the showroom, it saves a few pounds and tricks out his sled for a relative small cost. Plus these motors like to run warm and a ceramic coated pipe will work 10x better than that stock shield. Don't forget to raise the engagement so it hits a little harder for him too when he gets to that "power hungry" stage.

Have fun and update us on what you ended up doing and how he's liking the sled! I built my little brother 2 different sleds while he was growing up and now have my 10yo daughters first "bigger than a 120" sled(340 Indy Lite) on the saw horses getting (some uneeded) treatment so she can start riding with us for longer periods and be able to venture off into the fields and rolling hills without me having to be 10ft behind her at all times.

 

[CATSLEDMAN1]

M5 mods

I owned two back in the day, and with good setup they will go about anywhere in the mtns

1. gear it lower, same as like an 010 cat, I can't remember those ratio's right now, but must do.

2, run the later 07/08 orange secondary spring.

3. better yet run the 08 bigger secondary clutch and belt and orange spring.

4 pipe's..........never found one to work

5 trim tunnel and put on simple bumper

6 keep the carbs sync'd

7 ditch the seat to later short tall mtn seat

8 run 141 " track, should be lots of good used stuff out there today.



do One thing!!! got to gear it and clutch the secondary.

 

[Reeb]

1. gear it lower, same as like an 010 cat, I can't remember those ratio's right now, but must do.

I don't know what a M5 was geared for but the one I spent a lot of time around would barely it 70mph. On the trail, going down hill, across a lake, didn't matter. I figured they were geared plenty low considering that.




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[lasse]

Crossfire-5 engine that not run right... ?

Doing the oil delete and running premix cleans up the bottom end quite nicely,
giving a nice punch to the gut in low end power.
My 440 (almost the same engine, just with APV) responded well to removing the exhaust heat shielding and ceramic coating the pipe too.
These 500's like to run warm and a ceramic coated pipe will work 10x better than that stock shield.
Don't forget to raise the engagement so it hits a little harder.

Reeb

Tell me more about your experiences about the Oil Injection delete.
Wife's sled ( 2008 ) Crossfire-5 are extremely sluggish on the low end.

also look here:
* http://www.arcticchat.com/forum/crossfire-136-141/352179-2009-crossfire-5-running-rich.html

 

[Reeb]

Reeb



Tell me more about your experiences about the Oil Injection delete.

Wife's sled ( 2008 ) Crossfire-5 are extremely sluggish on the low end.







also look here:

* http://www.arcticchat.com/forum/crossfire-136-141/352179-2009-crossfire-5-running-rich.html

PM returned!


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[KMMAC]

Gear down

I don't know what a M5 was geared for but the one I spent a lot of time around would barely it 70mph. On the trail, going down hill, across a lake, didn't matter. I figured they were geared plenty low considering that.




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Just because a sled won't go any faster than a certain speed doesn't mean it is low geared, in fact it could be too high geared especially the smaller the engine. I rode with a guy from Montana who was riding a Phazer with a 156" 2" track and geared for about 50 he said.That thing went every where. The way drive clutches work, if set up properly, with the right gearing should be nearly into over drive while in deep snow and the engine singing at near max rpm.
Like always, gearing is the first thing to address otherwise messing with weights and springs and helix's will drive you batty.
High gearing does not allow for full clutch shift and with cat clutches is critical. The easier they shift the better, eg. longer life....
Now cats diamond drive secondary clutch tries to work more like a Polaris secondary, where it does not cycle through full shift to function. Again the problem is too high geared, I do this,, put the back of the sled on a solid stand with the track well off the ground
and run the clutches through full shift, watch the spedo. I bet you will be amazed at how much track speed there is at full clutch shift.
I was, now, gear down to get to where the clutches are near full shift out and your rpm is near max in deep snow. Ya, it will be slower on the trial but, what do you want? Trail sled or mt. sled..

 

[Reeb]

Just because a sled won't go any faster than a certain speed doesn't mean it is low geared, in fact it could be too high geared especially the smaller the engine. I rode with a guy from Montana who was riding a Phazer with a 156" 2" track and geared for about 50 he said.That thing went every where. The way drive clutches work, if set up properly, with the right gearing should be nearly into over drive while in deep snow and the engine singing at near max rpm.

Like always, gearing is the first thing to address otherwise messing with weights and springs and helix's will drive you batty.

High gearing does not allow for full clutch shift and with cat clutches is critical. The easier they shift the better, eg. longer life....

Now cats diamond drive secondary clutch tries to work more like a Polaris secondary, where it does not cycle through full shift to function. Again the problem is too high geared, I do this,, put the back of the sled on a solid stand with the track well off the ground

and run the clutches through full shift, watch the spedo. I bet you will be amazed at how much track speed there is at full clutch shift.

I was, now, gear down to get to where the clutches are near full shift out and your rpm is near max in deep snow. Ya, it will be slower on the trial but, what do you want? Trail sled or mt. sled..

I understand this but when the sled pulls the same trackspeed in deep snow, on the trail, and going downhill WFO....chances are it could be geared higher and will pull a higher gear. That's all I'm saying. When I big bored my M7 with a 153 I geared up to Xfire gearing because it wanted more speed. Worked great for me and I got my clutching dialed after fighting it for half a year.

I'm more than aware how clutches and gearing works in conjunction with each other. Been doing it for enough years but thanks for the reply. Others might want to take note tho. That's good info.


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[Reeb]

With that being said.....I don't know what was stock for gearing in the M5's to start. However since the stock track wasn't the 1.25 that the OP has on it now, I'm guessing going back to the stock size track won't be overbearing on the drivetrain like a longer and deeper lug track might be if it was originally a short track sled.


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[KMMAC]

Ya well, sorry REEB, I had no intentions of stepping on toes here was just using something you said to make a point about how cat has always sent their sleds out with too high of gearing. I had written this already and my lap top decided to do an update. So point is with ANY cat put it on a stand and warm it up and run the clutches through a few cycles and then almost all the way to full shift out at near max RPM and check the speed. THAT will give you an idea how much over gear there is, then gear down accordingly. This will simplify all the spring, weight and helix guessing to try and get the sled to do what you want it to with out burning belts and wearing the clutches out early. Why do you think cat went to after market clutches, HEAT. I know, cats come lower geared now but really? Is there still a lot of clutch heat? If so then how fast do the clutches shift, how is the back shift? If the gearing is low enough, that in it's self will force the clutches to shift out and back shift faster because of the drag on the track in the snow which will transfer through to the secondary clutch. This may not make any sense but at least put the sled on a stand and check the track speed near full throttle and the clutches shifted out. That's all I ask watching it all work is interesting. With lower gearing you can get really aggressive with the helix to control rpm. I see new clutch design coming.

 

[Reeb]

Ya well, sorry REEB, I had no intentions of stepping on toes here was just using something you said to make a point about how cat has always sent their sleds out with too high of gearing. I had written this already and my lap top decided to do an update. So point is with ANY cat put it on a stand and warm it up and run the clutches through a few cycles and then almost all the way to full shift out at near max RPM and check the speed. THAT will give you an idea how much over gear there is, then gear down accordingly. This will simplify all the spring, weight and helix guessing to try and get the sled to do what you want it to with out burning belts and wearing the clutches out early. Why do you think cat went to after market clutches, HEAT. I know, cats come lower geared now but really? Is there still a lot of clutch heat? If so then how fast do the clutches shift, how is the back shift? If the gearing is low enough, that in it's self will force the clutches to shift out and back shift faster because of the drag on the track in the snow which will transfer through to the secondary clutch. This may not make any sense but at least put the sled on a stand and check the track speed near full throttle and the clutches shifted out. That's all I ask watching it all work is interesting. With lower gearing you can get really aggressive with the helix to control rpm. I see new clutch design coming.

I know what you mean but I have to correct one little point. Since 2005 Cat has used Team to build their clutches already. To Cats specs of course. And Team subbed the Cat(and Doo TRA-2007) overseas until they expanded their US operations and brought the majority if not all contracts in house.
They've been "Team" clutches since this whole clutch fiasco started for both Cat and Doo.

But that's a whole other discussion...

As far as over gearing, every OEM has done that since the inception of the snowmobile. That's nothing new. All I mentioned was that the M5 we had in our group would do 70-ish across a field, up a hardback hill, and down a steeper hill. Basically free wheeling when you are pointed downhill at WFO. That's always been the test of gearing(much like your trackstand tuning) My trackdyno provided years of insight that I thought I had figured out before but obviously did not.

Regardless, this isn't a discussion about what we know or how we decide to gear our sleds, it's about making the most out of this guys M5 for his kid. If we want to detail the thread any more we should start our own thread.


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[CATSLEDMAN1]

dat little motor

the little 500 does not like tall gearing...........where I live in the MTNS.

None of my 500's ever saw 70 for any reason, they did climb mt Jefferson in hard snow with a 200 lb rider, cool clutch's and 3 ft of fresh was ok with the little 500's and a couple of 120 lb riders. ran 2" 141 tracks. a suggestion anyway

 

[Reeb]

Well if the implication is that the M5 I rode with never saw any MTNS then the assumption would be wrong. Rode Sicamous and Revelstoke exclusively. I think there's mountains there?!?

But I digress, this isn't a pissing contest, it's a thread to help a guy set a sled up for his boy. Let's keep it that way and avoid the snide remarks for the OP's sake.


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[boondocker97]

Well if the implication is that the M5 I rode with never saw any MTNS then the assumption would be wrong. Rode Sicamous and Revelstoke exclusively. I think there's mountains there?!?

There's mountains there, but what's the riding elevation? Gearing down might be needed based on that.

Here's a M5 build that Sled Solutions built for his kid that might be helpful: http://www.snowest.com/forum/showthread.php?t=395855&highlight=kid%27s+sled

 

[Reeb]

5-8k. I mentioned before that if the sled is being used at 10k+ then that's a different story.

Sled Solutions sled is pretty sweet. A season recap would be cool.


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[89sandman]

I would concentrate on making the sled more comfortable and fit him better. It will be a little while before he's going wrong foot forward and climbing the big stuff. Make sure the bars are at a comfortable level, brake lever with the right bend so he can grab it and use it easily. Boards would be another area, your legs are spread pretty wide on a sled at that age, making sure the boards are free from snow and ice and have better grip will go a long way towards making him feel more confident on the sled. With my kids and now grandkids I loosened the throttle so they can't get as much speed and is easier for them to use. This one thing seemed to make them ride more aggressively, when they weren't afraid of getting a big handful of go

 

[mikeshams]

I had a 2005 m5 went with a 2.25 power claw,hrp relocation bracket,rk Tek secondary, boyseen reeds 10 seat, mbrp can. Sled ran great at 8000ft and sea level,set belt to sheave clearance on primary for buttery smooth engagement.i would leave it stock and let him learn how to "ride" without all the bells and whistles, body English will benefit him more in the long run,good luck and keep the rubber side down