New horseman's question

[bullfrog123]

Not that I am new to horses, just new to the foundering deal. I know there was a thread a while ago about working with un-used older horses and such, but I have a ? for the real experienced fellas here.

We picked up our other 2 horses yesterday, and one shows signs of foundering, (as in the white rings in her hoves), the other seems fine other than being as "fat as an opera singer on broadway", but both need a SERIOUS diet plan.

What is the CORRECT way of going about this diet plan? I am currently feeding strait timothy grass hay twice a day, (2 flakes per horse), with dry lotting them the rest of the time while my pasture is growing. No other supplements or sweet feed for now, (other than the 2 very old nags that need the weight), currently have the 2 old ones seperated from the new ones, to ease the feeding process. Bad deal, trying to gain weight on 2, and trying to loose weight on other 2.

The withers on the one in ? are SERIOUSLY thick, and she shows the rings in the hooves. I don't want to starve them or work them improperly as to cripple them for life, but then again a little excercise won't hurt either.

All your help is much appreciated fellas. bullfrog.

 

[bullfrog123]

Forgot the pics, the grey Arab/quarter (hence the name Ahab), is the one in ? The other is just a BIG OL PITA brute who will knock you down for attention.

 

[opus]

Worm them for one. Grass hay is all they need. No need for sweet feed or any grain or alfalfa for that matter, unless you are working them. If you feel you MUST feed them some grain, give them a handful of oats.

That will keep you out of trouble as well as them.

 

[Wyoming T/A]

if they have foundered they will be prone to it forever, the richer the feed the worse they get--had a appy that foundered and i use to pasture her only a hour or 2 a day and a little grass hay--if she got sore i cut her back on the pasture--grass hay wont usually make them sore--just feed them in small amounts and watch there fett for soreness.

 

[Skogen]

There is not alot of energy in Timothy hay. That should be a good diet for them.

Best way to keep the weight off a horse is use.

And yes, if they have foundered before, they are prone to do it forever.

 

[mtnjunkie]

The grey is very fat. Can't see the neck well, but does look cresty. There is a little crest on the sorrel's neck, but he doesn't look as bad. Feed only grass hay, and a vitamin and mineral supplement. Do you feed salt and mineral already? What kind? Here's a good one I've had lots of luck with.
http://www.jeffersequine.com/ssc/product.asp?CID=1&mscssid=XUCEMQA9AW6S9MELN5F1JQQ1N2SPECE9&pf_id=0029637

They need a good vitamin/ mineral supplement and salt. This one has salt, you don't have to provide any other type. Do you have a good trimmer? I'd love to see pics of their feet. That will be a very important part of rehab for a foundered horse. Not just any farrier. Get a natural trimmer, and a foundered horse will be recovered FULLY and able to ride. With proper diet, trimming, and exercise, they will not founder again. I've studied it lots as I've had my best horse founder, nobody could fix him. My dad sold him. I won't make that mistake again. I trim my own horses and know it's possible to fix. You just need the right person. I strongly recommend you do not put shoes on them, no matter what anyone says. It will make it worse.
If you can get pictures of the feet- I could tell you more and how bad they look. Pictures of them from the side and straight on at ground level. And pictures of the sole and from the back of the heel.

And yes, worm them. Dry lot is best, no grass as it has lots of starch. No starchy feed- even some vegetables. Are they lame? I can give you some great websites with very knowledgeable people if you like. Actually here is a few. And some of the natural timming stuff sounds hoaky I know. But it's the way to go. I've learned from lots of experience. And not all are the same, some "natural" ones are going off another end of the spectrum I don't agree with.
http://www.hoofrehab.com/
This has lots of info on feeding horses and founder/laminitis.
http://www.safergrass.org/
This forum has very knowledgable people. There are some expert trimmers on the hoof forum. They could teach you to trim yourself if you wanted. You can find out about anything you want from some of these people.
http://forums.horsecity.com/cgi-bin/bb/ultimatebb.cgi

 

[mtnjunkie]

Oh ya. As for the others you're trying to put weight on, skip the sweet feed. Sugar and starches are just not good for horses, at all. Give them free choice grass hay, salt and mineral supplement, and a good weight builder, or a senior feed would be best. Oats aren't great, not easily digestible or nutritious. You can get a good bagged feed if you like, that has a lot of fiber without any molasses. I'll give you a couple of examples. Beet pulp is good, buy it shredded and soak it for at least a half hour I think- can't remember. It has to be soaked up and soft. Follow directions on amount, you want to start off with a little and build up slowly.
This website has lots of more info on nutrition and good products. Their mineral supplement is the one I use. You can get some of their products a little cheaper through jeffersequine.com if you don't have a dealer close by.
http://www.admani.com/AllianceEquine/

Nutrena also makes good products if you want a complete bagged feed.
http://www.nutrenaworld.com/Screens/ProductDetails_Equine.aspx?ProductId=83

One thing I'd be careful of with adding feed is the mineral contents. Like with the mineral I'm feeding I would use a weight supplement by the same company formulated to feed with their mineral supplement, then you don't get an overload of something or get the calcium/phosphorus out of balance. Or just add soaked beet pulp- it's low in starch and a great weight builder. It has to be fully soaked though. Ground flax seed is also good. I'd start with 1/4cup a day and go up to 1/2 cup a day per horse. You can also add a cup or two or corn oil on they hay to add weight. You can usually buy a beet pulp feed at the feed store, or a flax seed feed. With or without other stuff in it. But skip anything sweet, it's just bad calories for horses.
All this sounds complicated I know, but it really isn't. They make all this stuff prepared and easy. But it's good to read up on it in those websites.

 

[bullfrog123]

Thanks for the help everyone, esspecially skidoogirl. Lot's of good reads in those links. For the old nags we are currently useing Nutrena Life Design senior feed along with the timothy grass hay, NO "sweet" feeds are being used.
The other 2 fatso's are on a current diet of 2 feedings per day at 2-3 flakes per feeding per horse. And let me tell you, they are PIZZED off at us, they were in with the cows for 3 yrs with unlimited alfalfa and NO use. Got them from my parents who finally got it thru their melons that they weren't going to use them.
This is mine and the wife's first experience with chubby horses, all others in the past were used extensively, hence no issues in the past.

Thanks again.

 

[mtnjunkie]

Do you trim their feet? Getting a GOOD trimmer is going to be the main part of wether they recover or not, or to stop a founder if it hasn't quit gotten there yet. I've taken foundered horses to every vet, farrier, and specialist within 300 miles. And they never recovered. Not until I started studying it and trimming on my own did I realize how easy it is to fix them. And you can rehab even a severe founder, the ones most people would put down. I seen it and been working on one myself. There is not a farrier around here I will let near my horses after having several wrecked by them. I'd be happy to give advice on their feet if you like. If you don't already, you could learn it yourself. Rather than pay someone $70 for a trim that will make it much worse! If you do get pictures of their feet I would still love to see them!

Like with yours, most people just feed as much of whatever they want. They don't realize the damage it does to horses. It's so frustrating for me to see some backyard horses that are foundered and obese, haven't had a trimming in a year and can't even walk. Glad you're aware of this and working on it. Some people don't even attempt to educate themselves about what is best for the HORSE.

Oh, I highly recommend getting this book. Even if you're not going to do it yourself, it is very good. Every horse owner should read it, even if they don't follow all of it. And it's pretty cheap on Amazon.
http://www.hoofrehab.com/making_natural_hoof_care_work_fo.htm

 

[MTdream]

admit to not reading all of skidoogirls comments but looked like a lot...

first thing is first...horses never respond very well at all to dramatic changes in diet...so be careful there...they can founder just cuz of the change in diet...

make sure they are getting plenty of water...make sure you watch them carefully as you are changing diet...

Some horses are very prone to this, and as WyoTA said, if done once, it is going to always be an issue to watch for...but more than likely it has happened before too...

 

[bullfrog123]

Will get pics of the hooves for ya sdgirl. If I see things going "south" on the gray mare, maybe I can pay you to drive the 364 miles, round trip, and show me some things I need to know. I don't trim myself, guess I'm too chicken chit, and worry about screwing up. Although I would like to learn, IF may POS back can handle it.

MT, the diet has included being led around the property on a lead rope and eatin the fresh grass for an hour or so each day, as to not disrupt their diet to extreme. And the water is available 24/7, changed every other day.

Thanks again folks.

 

[mtnjunkie]

Good luck with them. I'm sure you could learn to trim if you can't find anyone close. maybe I could make it over there! I pretty much learned on my own, then had help from my boss. But now I'm doing more "natural" trims as they call it rather than shoeing unless I have to. It just has worked better, their feet are 10 times better. And I've learned the hard way that you cannot recover a foundered horse with all the shoes and gadgets farriers will use. Does not work. A good barefoot trim and lots of patience, lots of exercise and turn out, good diet- it won't come back.

I h ave a bad back and bad knees, but there just isn't anyone decent around here so I do it anyway. Split my 4 horses up into different days. Can't do them all at once, I wouldn't be able to walk!