KTM 450 SX-F or 500 XC-WW?

[AKdragon700]

KTM 450 SX-F or 500 XC-W?

I recently snow-checked a 2015 ST kit with orange powdercoating in hopes of hooking it up to a KTM. I have been looking around the states and Alaska for used and new KTM bikes. There's a lot of great choices but I'm still in limbo between which model to get.

Do I get the full out Motocross 450 KTM and go for super simple and lightweight?

OR do I go for the KTM 500 XC-W, and get the more rugged platform and bonus features like electric start, larger fuel tank, and electronic ignition?


There is also a high possibility that a boondocker turbo kit will be installed on the bike.


For context, I live in Fairbanks, Alaska and will only be riding this in the wide open Alaskan backcountry (3000 ft - 8000 ft is the most common elevation, and tree line is really low). Usually its wide open areas with small hits, cliff drops, and plenty of soft cornices.

Also, where I ride there's a good 5-10 mile ride until you get to the "goods". I recently rode a 450 kawi with a 2014 MH kit in this area, and kept finding myself wanting to reach for a 6th gear, and in low gears wishing I could get it on its tail. Which pushes me towards the 500+ enduro style bikes. Another factor is the general idea that enduro bikes like the 500 are built to last longer in more extreme conditions. Cold starts below zero will certainly be a thing.

I am a aggressive rider looking for the best of both worlds: power and reliability in extreme conditions. I know that's a lot to ask out of a machine that's "completely out of its element" but its worth a try to get it done RIGHT the first time.

Any opinion on a great setup with these conditons would be be great!


Also, any info on the Husabergs would be nice. To me its a mystery brand.

And I saw that Allen Magnum from Timbersled rides a Husa. And from what I can see he can barely keep the front end down.

If the most experienced man in the game is riding a Husaberg, I feel like that says something.

 

[dhdey]

450 xc-f, same power as sx, but bigger tanks and i think more output from the stator, better suspension for when you have wheels on it for type of riding you do

 

[Chadx]

If you will turbo it later, then a 450 due to the higher rev limit. 500 has lower ceiling which will work against making the turbo spin. Also, most seem to like the wide ratio tranny's with a turbo and close ratio without. Be realistic with how serious you are about adding that turbo as it really changes what model you'll want to start with.

All the late model ktms are electric start. It's just that some also have kick start backup and some, like the sx, don't. All the models are so similar that the motocross bikes are not really "simpler" and not noticeably lighter unless you are comparing it to an exc and even then, not by much. And I wouldn't say the enduro are any more rugged. Again, all about the same unless there is some particular aspect you are talking about that I'm missing. Don't fret about simple or not or more rugged. Focus on the trans ratio and motor personality and the rest will fall into place.

Unlike the older husabergs, the late model ones Allen is using are basically rebadged KTM 500. For the new model year, the husaberg name is now dead. They are now husqvarna. Still the same bike as the KTM 500 though with a couple minor differences.

 

[thejean]

You can put a kicker kit on 2013 and earlier 450's as well. My kicker kit came in yesterday!

 

[dirtrebel]

decisions

If I lived in Fairbanks I think I would get the 500 xc-w. Being it comes with a headlight and has the power to run grip heaters really well. Although the led lights and ame heated grips work on a race bike, from my experience the grip heaters get nowhere as hot as they do on a sled, or bike with a factory lighting system. The ame grips on my yz 450 and friends sxf get warm but our hands still freeze on cold days. From what I hear its dark almost all the time till march and usually like 20 below zero from november till march as well. Plus if you wanted to do any summer riding out across the bush the 500 xcw would be better. If you want an all out snowbike powerhouse for more warm spring riding when it's light all the time then go sx-f. The 450 sx-f is more a dedicated snowbike bike and the 500 makes a great snowbike and enduro ride.

 

[Chadx]

[Edited to expand on a few thoughts...]

And note they make the XC-W in a 450 as well. If you want lights and heaters, probably stay away from the SX-F unless you want to do stator work, though it is probably the most spirited of the bunch and you might even get away with not changing out your fork springs like you'll probably end up doing with the various XC bikes.

450 act more "snappy" while the 500 just pulls from everywhere which can make it feel less snappy. A lot of that is really just feel and what you prefer. A 450 revs more and has a bigger power hit particularly with a close ratio gearbox. If you are going wide ratio gearbox, probably best to go with the 500 over a 450. Again, different personality there. I have an old 525 and I love it. It is perfect for my riding style which is not hold it WOT all day long. Oh, there is plenty of WOT, but even more of mid-rpm tractoring through trees and sidehilling and just cruising around through the trees, etc.

As for the wide ratio, I like it on my 525 because it means less shifting with my riding style and 500+ cc always suprises me with what it will pull...on my 2014 ST kit anyway. Might be different with an LT. Often times, I put it in third and start climbing and the revs start to come down so I get ready to downshift but then the rpms level out and it just pulls and pulls. Yes, there are plenty of times I drop to 2nd gear, but third is my go to gear for soooo much. Spend most of my off-trail time in that gear (with stock MH gears and recommended 13tooth on the bike). I do use the super low first only occasionally, but when I do, I love having it. and I use 5th often in the wide open off trail and 6th a lot on the open trails (and sometimes look for 7th!).

Keeping in mind that I have no turbo experience but from the many, many threads on it and other threads on the differences between models, it sounds like the following would serve you well. Others can pipe in with other perspectives...

If Non-turbo:
- 450SX-F if lights/heater aren't a big deal or you are willing to do stator work. The stiffer fork springs and peppier mapping are a plus, though I think in late model bikes, the sx-f and xc-f are pretty close in pep if not exactly that same.
- 450XC-F if you want more electric power and larger factory gas tank and you may or may not want to stiffen fork springs.
- 500XC-W if you want more tractor and don't want the snappy feel if a 450. The 500 will pull the wide ratio gear box OK, but not have the snap of a 450 with close ratio tranny and doesn't rev as high. Some like the big bore wide ratio personality (I do) and some don't.
- Probably stay away from the 450XC-W. Sure it would be a blast, but just not quite as good as the three above, so since you are starting from scratch, might as well go with what will work the best for your riding style right off the bat.

If Turbo:
- 450XC-W - the 450 has higher rev ceiling than the 500 (around 1,500 more rpm I think?) and the turbo power will pull the wide ratio tranny without having to shift so much. I think most guys with turbos go wide ratio, but others can pipe up how the close ratio works with turbos.

 

[Rush44]

You can run a light on a 450 SXF. Grip heaters? No. Don't even try it.

 

[xr650ryder]

It's all about the 6th gear for me.

The 450 and 500 XC-W's have a sixth gear.
The 450 xc and sx have five.

Agree about the assessments above the 450 sx and xc are snappy but probably best suited to the turbo and possibly the shorter track if you answer to hill-climbing is track speed. The 450 sx and xc just spanks the 500 XCW.
I climb best when leaving my track hooked up. The 500 XCW is more my style especially if I get an LT next time. Not having a sixth gear is a deal breaker for me.

I understand the new 2015 TS are 1:1 Gear ratio with 1 tooth smaller driver.
If I was putting a 2015 TS LT together I would go with the 500 XC-W to get the torque and 6th gear. I would mess with the 1:1 Gear ratio and decrease track speed to space the gears closer together. I would probably be starting out in 2nd gear allot.

With that being said I don't think it gets much better for overall performance than my "06" 525 XC 2013ST with the stock gearing. (13:17, 17:20 ) Some times I wished it had more top speed with the Close Ratio Tranny. The Hybrid tranny of the 2013 511 Husqvarna would be nice. (CR 1-3 and WR 4-6)

It's not one size fits all with these Snow-bikes. You have to choose what setup will best suit your style. Also a major factor in my bike choice is mine haven't seen wheels after being Shaw-ed with a track.

My next bike is probably the 501 TE Husqvarna. (Stroked 450 with six speeds and Linked Rear and lights).

Good Luck,
Knobbies and treads make great memories!

 

[AKdragon700]

The 500 XC-W was the one!

Well after much delegation and shopping around I decided to go with a Fresh KTM 2013 500 XC-W (got a great deal from a local dealer). In little under a week I've already logged 50+ trail miles and some highway miles.

This bike is a beast on the trails!! It has such an amazing powerband for trail riding. No matter what gear your in, the torque will pull you right to the top of the powerband, then give you some more for that endless wheelie.

So far, with the bike on dirt, I am very happy with the XC-W model choice. Handling and suspension work amazing for high speed trails and slashing berms. The 6th gear is great, and I surprisingly use it more than I thought. The E-Start and EFI is so convenient. Truly hop on, twist and go. I was also very happy to find that the 2013 model had the kick start factory installed (big , big + in my mind).

But OF COURSE, its summertime and...

All of this means very little in the snowbike game.

Which means I still have concerns and a big list of modifications to overcome.

I got great advice on the bike choice, and would love to start up another conversation for the big transition up to winter.

Lets start with the concerns and work towards the potential solutions

Concerns:

- The 500 will not be able to handle the constant high revving abuse that snowbiking creates. I believe its rev ceiling is significantly lower then the F models? Is this because of the single overhead cam?

- The Wide Gear ratio will rob me of the playful low speed attitude that we all love in a snowbike, but give me great joy when cruising in the bowls and down the rivers in town.

- I will have to add performance modifications to gain that playful attitude back, WHICH will eventually rob my long term reliability (i.e. turbo, BB, comp head, etc)

- I will continuously be re-modifying my airbox and engine protection shrouds to fix snow ingestion problems

Modifications:

Full Exhaust System - Choices??
- FMF 4.1 system w/megabomb
- Pro Cicuit T-5?
- Akrapovic? <-- Sounds like the best, Why?

ECU reprogramming
- Benefits? Pros and Cons?
- Popular options?

Thermostat
- Still confused on the need for the thermostat since it seems to be hit and miss on which models have problems. How does the KTM 500 do with cold weather conditions? Gas in oil??
- Would swapping out stock with a 70 degree thermostat solve such problems? Do these bikes have a coolant bypass system?

(http://racebikebitzusa.com/KTM-Samc...2012-Bypass-Samco-Sport-Silicone-Hose-Package)

Headlight
- 4 inch LED from Rigid Industries on top of bars - leave factory light
- Swap out factory light for this ---> Check this new KTM specific LED mount! (http://www.rigidindustries.com/mounting-options/46513)
- No headlight at all, run a helmet mounted LED (Cyclops, custom, etc)

Wrap around handguard's with handlebar mitts/covers
- Best wraparound handguard?? Current favorite is the low profile Cycra Enduro Shields (http://www.motosport.com/dirtbike/Cycra-Pro-Bend-Kit)
- Are mitts/covers needed? Are thin gloves and hand warmers sufficient? (http://www.hippohands.com/)
- Good handlebar warmer kits??

Extended/ Larger Pegs
- Are they a must? $250 for Pro Moto Billet Adventure Pegs is a little high for its overall benefit
- Does anyone make a simple bolt on extension?? Other options...
(http://www.promotobillet.com/c-769660-footpegs-adventure-footpegs-ktmadventurepegs.html)

Seat Concepts: Taller Seat/more cushion
- I'm 6' 3" and I feel a little cramped on the bike when tucked and crusing.....Any personal feedback on going to a taller seat/more cushion would be great.
- (http://www.seatconcepts.com/products)

Engine Shroud
- Do you buy a Enduro engine shroud and maybe extend some plastic over the sides?
- I don't want to go F-Ugly extreme for a engine shroud. I just want a happy medium that will stop snow from PACKING.
- Any custom options? Saw a great plastic wraparound product on a turbo snowbike out of Montana. It wrapped tight and close around the engine. I think it was made by SMS? I cant remember the company name

Airbox
- I'm just gonna start with a timbersled pre-filter and some filter mesh to fill the nooks and cranny's and see how it does.
- If that doesn't do the trick then Ill go to more extremes with trying to use some sort of custom pod filter (found many great examples on the forum)

Radiator Shrouds
- The plastic ones currently on it aren't going to cut it. I know Ill eventually find some tight trees and stick one right to the radiator.
- Good brands??
- Filter over the front? Does it really matter if the radiators get completely packed??

Fork Springs
- I understand that many have gone to stiffer fork springs and thicker fork oil to help handle the extra pressure on the front end.
- I'm around 200 with gear. Is this a must do or simply rider preference and setup? I imagine I will have to ride and see before really knowing
- Whats the unit of measure for fork spring size/stiffness??
i.e. blank spring and oil will provide 20% stiffer springs than a blank spring and oil setup

Battery
- Even though I have the kickstart I am still interested in gaining better cranking power.
- Found this Shorai battery- seems legit but spendy
(http://motocrossactionmag.com/news/...-250350450sxf-lightweight-lithium-lfx-battery)

Exhaust Protection
- Most likely buy whatever protection that can be added onto my pipe system
- Any recommendations? i.e. must cover full pipe, etc



I imagine as I ride and progress I will understand a need for more modifications. BUT I would love to start it off right. Build the best snowbike I can possibly build, given my environment, as I await one of my most anticipated winters to date.

Please do not feel like you need to answer all my questions at once as some are simply basic bike education questions that may have to be taken elsewhere. Any advice is good advice in my eyes, I can sort the truth out later. You don't have to explain, even a link to a product or a previous post is fine.

Thanks for all the help so far

 

[Chadx]

Congrats on the 500! It won't be for next season, but I plan to move from my 525 to a 500/501 by the season after so keep that in mind with my answers below (and what I had already posted earlier in this thread).

Some of your comments and my opinion (others will chime in with theirs)...
>>> The 500 will not be able to handle the constant high revving abuse that snowbiking creates. I believe its rev ceiling is significantly lower then the F models? Is this because of the single overhead cam?

The 500 does have a lower rev limiter. I think 1,500 less than the 450. Hence why anyone that is going to turbo usually goes with a 450 rather than 500 as noted above. But the 500 just plain pulls. It is not snappy like a 450 with close ratio. It is a tractor with power everywhere and part of having such a fat midrange is the top end doesn't feel as abrupt. It's that abrupt change to a hard hitting top end that a rider usually interprets as sporty or snappy because of the "hit". The thing about the 500 is it doesn't have to pull the revs like the 450. It does the same job at lower revs. On my 525, I was concerned about the wide ratio, now it's my preference. Most of the times where the revs start to drop off and I, at first, think a downshift is imminent, it settles into a rev and just keeps on pulling and never bogs out. I love it. Some don't and prefer the close ratio. Again that's a riding style preference. Usually the really aggressive guys like the close ratio and snappier 450.

>>> The Wide Gear ratio will rob me of the playful low speed attitude that we all love in a snowbike, but give me great joy when cruising in the bowls and down the rivers in town.

Not sure what this means. The first gear on a wide ratio bike is lower than than the first on the close ratio bike and top gear is taller. I don't think having a close ratio makes a bike more playful but I might be misunderstanding how you define playful. Perhaps easier to find the perfect gear in a close ratio on a 450, but again, the 500 pulls from revs the 450 doesn't pull from quite as well, so less shifting is needed. To me that is a benefit. Less of the constant shifting, shifting shifting that the aggressive riders like.

>>> I will have to add performance modifications to gain that playful attitude back, WHICH will eventually rob my long term reliability (i.e. turbo, BB, comp head, etc)

Ride it a season before you do any performance mods. Turbo won't perform as well on a 500 because of the lower rev ceiling than a 450 and turbos love rpm. But hold off on the head work, higher compression, exhaust, etc for a season and just ride it and enjoy. Then you can address any shortcomings you think it haves after that rather than changing just for the sake of modding. Besides, you'll appreciate the mods you do MUCH more if you have a before and after. Or decide you need nothing. For me, any exhaust mod is to make them quieter, now louder. That pipe in your ear, at high rpm all day, gets loud. It's not like trail riding or even track riding. You are on the throttle all day long and even the stock exhaust will get loud after that long. If you are changing mufflers, look for something that lowers decibels not raises it. Again, I suggest riding stock exhaust for a season, then you can decide for yourself where, if anywhere, you want to change the powerband and pipe accordingly.

>>> I will continuously be re-modifying my airbox and engine protection shrouds to fix snow ingestion problems

This probably won't be as much work as you think as long as you go about it right and there is plenty of info on here where others have experimented enough to take the guess work out of it. My guess is you'll end up with either a pod filter or cutting the bottom out of your airbox. Those two methods seem to be where everyone ends up after messing with foam and screens and all that. One wants the snow to fall out and away from your intake, so just do it right the first time and you'll be done with it and avoid issues.

Congrats again. You'll love the bike and love the new mountainhorse kit. I've ridden the new and like it compared to my 2014 ST kit. I'm going to ride my 2014 ST for one more season and then go to a 2016 kit when I find a 500 XCW or Berg/Husky 501 the summer after this.

 

[Rush44]

Listen to ChadX. You are saying "This will do this" and "riding will suffer because of that". All you are doing is unnecessarily racking up modification expenses you truely don't know you will need. Do yourself a favor.... Add busters, foot pegs, and a few other goodies and just ride it. Ride a couple friends bikes too. 3 seasons and 3 bikes for me and I still don't have it all figured out as far as which bike truely is perfect for me. It sucks to dump a crap load of money into something and then find out you like another setup better.

Ride it and you'll find plenty of places to throw your money.... But at least you'll KNOW why at that point rather than from a speculative point of view.

Oh yea. Screw Shori for real... worst reviewed battery on the market. Just get the Yuasa YTZ7S and forget about cold crank issues. Excellent battery.

 

[bdoe22]

exhaust

after running a demo fleet of KTM's for two years, I can give you a little insight.
First, ditch the stock xc-w muffler. the exhaust will get so hot after extended wide open throttle, that it will literally melt the screws out of the end cap. i have seen 5 in the last year do this. the FMF 4.1 with the sparkaresstor/quiet core insert is not loud and has a bit of an increase in power.
2nd, get the map switch for under the seat. $50 well spent.

3rd, xc-w's have a thermostat from the factory, put a TTO watertemp gauge on and be done with it.

4th, handguards, rad guards, pipe guard, and skid plate p3 or eline, are a must.

if you are looking for more light, there is nothing more trick than the baja designs squadron XL headlight.

grip heaters are nice, the ame's are a pain in the ***, i like the stick on elements with a thin mx grip over top.

the intake and radiator blockage is going to depend on your snow conditions and riding style

bigger pegs are not a must. but are nice. peg extensions can be bought for alot cheaper than adventure pegs

crank the compression on your forks and ride it until you understand your suspension, a stiffer 5.2 spring will help hold the front end up and make a big difference but is certainly not mandatory right away.

skip the shorai, get a YTZ7S

 

[ShawnUTAH]

I really like what Chadx is explaining . . . Also, if you do go with a turbo or you just want to increase your rev limiter on your 500 then you can increase it with a factory ktm 500 ecu which has been reflashed. I heard it was about $475 from boondocker turbo systems.

 

[AKdragon700]

Great first hand rider comparison

Found this great comparison in another thread..

Had my LT timber sled on a 14' XCF 450 and 14' XCW 500. I wouldn't do a 5 spd again unless I had to. Just can't keep up with the sleds on the trail without a 6th gear, it's just annoying. Had it on the 450 first then the 500. Don't know why you would get anything else for the timber sled other than a 500. The 500 torque and power was just seems better suited for a timber sled. Definitely want something with a headlight and e-start as well. The other thing I didn't like about the XCF is the lack of a kick start if the battery goes bad. I just wouldn't do a 450xcf again.

 

[AKdragon700]

Personal Preference

Rush44 summing it up with more great information about bike choice. Its all in your rider preference, style, and local terrain that truly deems which bike will fit you best.

If you ride a lot of trail the 6spd 500 is probably a better choice. However, around here where we have very beat up short trails (maybe a couple miles before you never see one again for the rest of the day), the 450 is the right animal for the job. The sleds will lose me in the straights, but the second a few curves get thrown in I rail right past them. I'm almost always first to the end of the trail when I'm with sleds.

The steeper, the more gnarly, the more technical, and the tighter things get the better the race 450s of all manufacturers run. If you have wide open spaces with lots of super deep powder and long hauls to cover the 500 will probably be your weapon of choice.

In the end it all depends on personal preference. Both bikes will get your rocks off.

 

[AKdragon700]

Update on my KTM 500 build

With all the great advice from everyone, I've finally started to order the basic mods for my snowbike setup.

Got my Zipty Racings Footpeg extensions. Great looking product, fast shipping. I will post pictures and give a on-dirt review once installed.

(http://www.ziptyracing.com/ktm-foot-peg-extensions/)


Got the recommended Yuasa YTZ7S battery from a local battery dealer. It is NOT a Yuasa brand and it was significantly cheaper. He even tested it to show its CCA. Test showed 138 CCA, and the results back it up. Definitely a recommended upgrade.


Ordered a full 4.1 series exhaust system from FMF with Megabomb header pipe and carbon fiber tip. And yes they are very proud of their exhaust....$$$


Ordered a set of Cycra Pro Bend handguards with plastic bumpers

Ordered a carbon skid plate and megabomb header protector from P3 composites

(http://p3carbon.com/shop/ktm-sp/ktm-skid-plate-450500-sx-fxc-fxc-wexc-12-14/)

(http://p3carbon.com/shop/ktm-hs/p3-heat-shield-ktm-450500-megabomb-12-14/)




Next up, is the ECU programming switch and a LED light kit from Rigid Industries:


ECU programming switch
(http://www.motosport.com/dirtbike/2013-ktm-500xcw--Trail-Tech-Ignition-Map-Switch-With-Kill-Switch)
Is this switch necessary or should I just get it flashed with the "wild" setting and just leave it?



Anyone have any reviews for these LED light kits??

(http://www.motominded.com/products/led-bracket-ktm-rd-kit)



(http://powersports.rigidindustries.com/mounting-options/46513)

 

[Rush44]

Don't forget to check out Cyclops Racings Penetrator series (the 625 is a great choice). I made a little video 2 years ago when I was in Cooke City. The 610 is more focused where the 625 spreads the beam out more.