I've blown up two 600's now and oh! the lessons I've learned

[cateye5312]

For all of you claiming the 600's are bulletproof I can assure you they are not. I have now blown up two, both confirmed manufacturing defects. That to me is a bad, bad sign.

#1 - 2012 Pro RMK 600 - at 357 miles the engine seized and took with it a number of parts, one piston, one cylinder, some bearings, etc. It was determined that there was a faulty crankshaft (crankcase?) seal. Either it was improperly installed or it was a bad seal. Either way, the engine went down.

#2 - 2012 standard RMK 600 - at 530 miles the engine seized, damaging one cylinder, both pistons and a number of other miscellaneous parts. There was a bubble in the oil line which prevented the engine from getting oil, hence the burndown.

Fortunately for me, Polaris stood behind both of these machines. The first had an extended warranty that covered the problem, the second did not. Polaris had issued a service bulletin on sled #2 that the original owner ignored about a problem with air in the oil pump and the need for a fix. Polaris decided to fix this machine even though a bulletin had been issued and ignored regarding a potential problem. I am very grateful to Polaris for this. I could easily have seen them saying too bad.

Lessons learned:

From now on when I buy a used sled I will have my dealer run the VIN and check for any service bulletins, any dealer work that may have been done on the sled, any warranties that may or may not still be in place and I will transfer the warranty properly instead of making my dealer argue with the warranty company when I try to file a claim. (there is a proper way to transfer the warranty and it should be followed - I didn't on sled#1 but my dealer was able to get that issue straightened out after the fact.)

600's are not bulletproof and are subject to manufacturing defects just like the 800's. My experience is that 100% of them will burn down, LOL!

Polaris will stand behind their products but their reliability sucks. period. That point is not arguable as far as I am concerned. I can already hear all of you telling me how wrong I am. Go read the drivetrain thread. Yes there was a service bulletin issued for sled #2 but if it had been properly assembled that bulletin would never have needed to be issued in the first place.
IMO ,neither one of these sleds would have burned down if they had been properly assembled. That's not an engineering issue that is a production issue.

I will still get my snowchecked 800, I will not modify it and I will use my 4 year warranty. I am glad that now I have extra sleds so when mine burns down I can still ride. Notice I said when not if. My personal experience tells me it will happen it's just a matter of when. And yes I have read all the no problem threads. Lucky bast**ds!

And yes I still love riding Polaris! ( and everyone who rides a different brand can now call me stupid if you wish) Amazing how much we are williing to put up with!

 

[Reg2view]

I have yet to see an industry where end consumers are so tolerant of either poor design or execution quality, and keep coming back for more, at greatly increased prices, while the OEMs keep thriving. We sure love sledding, especially pow riders. And even the best quality execution (Y) hasn't prevented them from continuing the production of some real underperforming sleds over the years.

Have any machines in the powersport biz increased in cost and complexity faster than sleds? Doubtful. Granted, the EPA is a key driver, but the lack of volume and short product lifecycles just make it impossible for the auto OEM quality techniques to be effective in the sled biz. Longer warranties are probably the only thing that keeps us buying new right now - eventually, they'll be a day of reckoning there, too, as in even higher prices.

 

[mountainhorse]

I feel for you and your two that have the problems...The second one however was not actually related to the engine and would have happened to any engine that did not get a supply of oil to the pump through the line.

Your 600 with a bad seal, is very very rare... If the 600's were an unreliable engine in general.... you would see that plastered all over these forums.

For the most part, in 99% of the owners with 600CFi motors... they have been rock solid powerplants.

Again... I feel your pain and wish you the best of luck in the seasons to come.

Also, don't misconstrue what I'm saying... you will see in many of my posts that I agree with you... it is not engineering on the a-arms or the engines or the QuickDrives... but production of the assemblies or sleds that has plagued Polaris for the last 9 seasons since the 2005 900 RMK's... and the 800-VES cranks before that.

Some of this technology, like the bonded a-arms and Quick Drives... makes me wonder if the engineering is compatible with the demands of a fast moving production line at the per-unit cost demanded by those in Medina.

The demos for the 2013 fleet in the Spring of 2012 were damn near bulletproof in the face of very abusive demo use... but those were hand assembled on a production line with extra care and with prototype parts, that were most likely ALL inspected for QC before use... from vendors, or in house, that were produced in small numbers.

IMO, the 600 cfi's are among the most reliable engines produced in any of the 2 stroke offerings in any brand.


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[RMK935VA]

MH is correct. The 600 Polaris engine is as close to bulletproof as you can get in a high performance two stroke snowmobile engine. I have owned multiple 600s from Polaris and they have all run well with zero problems. I currently own a 2012 RMK Pro 600 (Wife's sled, extra sled, etc.). I am amazed at how well it works as are my friends who have been on it. Several very good mountain riders have spent the entire day on it due to their own rides being in the shop. They rode it very hard and had a smile plastered on their faces all day long.

 

[polaris dude]

I've got a 600 with 3k+ miles and all I do is wash it in the summer, put gas/oil in, and go. My dad had a 600 from '98 with 6K miles and only had a chain drive go. If I was you I would chalk it up to bad luck. I am pretty hard on polaris for their terrible 800 engines but I think that if their 800s had the same track record as their 600/700s they would have nearly ran cat/doo out of business the first year they came out with the pro chassis.

 

[wellfed777]

reg2
i will agree that quality and reliability are some serious question marks
but price increase ??? in 03 or 04 a vert. escape was close to $10,000 bucks now
its $11,500-$12,500 for a pro thats not much increase for 10 years
don't get me wrong i wish they were $500
sorry

 

[Hawkster]

And yes I still love riding Polaris! ( and everyone who rides a different brand can now call me stupid if you wish) Amazing how much we are williing to put up with!

It's only human nature to get back up when knocked down , good on you . It's more than I can say for those that sugar coat it or walk away saying nothing letting the unsuspecting find out the hard way .
If an inferior product is made shoudn't an inferior price go with it ? Now that they detuned the 600 for 2013 .
Passed up a 2014 Summit X 800 E-tec 146 ES and gas caddy with a four year bumper to bumper for 11,600 .
Gonna put half of it back into the completely blown IQ the little woman nuked a few weeks back .
Just imagine if every time a farmer had a break down with a machine ?? Where would that leave this country ??

 

[cateye5312]

MH is correct. The 600 Polaris engine is as close to bulletproof as you can get in a high performance two stroke snowmobile engine. I have owned multiple 600s from Polaris and they have all run well with zero problems. I currently own a 2012 RMK Pro 600 (Wife's sled, extra sled, etc.). I am amazed at how well it works as are my friends who have been on it. Several very good mountain riders have spent the entire day on it due to their own rides being in the shop. They rode it very hard and had a smile plastered on their faces all day long.

I've owned bunches of 600's and 700's over the years and they have been great - not saying it's a bad design I am saying Paris has a reliability issue currently and for both of my units it is an assembly line issue.

It' s pretty simple really - reliabilty means not breaking down. I'm not just talking about engines I mean the whole unit.

 

[M7DingBat]

I have yet to see an industry where end consumers are so tolerant of either poor design or execution quality, and keep coming back for more, at greatly increased prices, while the OEMs keep thriving. We sure love sledding, especially pow riders. And even the best quality execution (Y) hasn't prevented them from continuing the production of some real underperforming sleds over the years.

Have any machines in the powersport biz increased in cost and complexity faster than sleds? Doubtful. Granted, the EPA is a key driver, but the lack of volume and short product lifecycles just make it impossible for the auto OEM quality techniques to be effective in the sled biz. Longer warranties are probably the only thing that keeps us buying new right now - eventually, they'll be a day of reckoning there, too, as in even higher prices.

I believe that people are migrating to Polaris for one reason...handling.
We all know the motors are going to be "underpowered" (the few I rode felt GREAT.) and/or pop at around 800-1500ish...but I don't care. The ease of how I can dip and cut that sled on any angle, more then makes up for any power or reliability issue in my book. That is...until it leaves me on the back side of something really big...then I'll be mad.

 

[500efisks]

I believe that people are migrating to Polaris for one reason...handling.
We all know the motors are going to be "underpowered" (the few I rode felt GREAT.) and/or pop at around 800-1500ish...but I don't care. The ease of how I can dip and cut that sled on any angle, more then makes up for any power or reliability issue in my book. That is...until it leaves me on the back side of something really big...then I'll be mad.

I just have to say this...It drives me nuts when I here people say the Polaris motors are underpowered. My switchback assault 800 with a 2" x 144 track will run close to 100 mph. Maybe the Poo engine is not as powerful as other manufacturers but the term underpowered drives me nuts. When I use the throttle as an on off switch the machine is a rocket and will stay with 800 renegades and F8s of shorter track lengths and beat them in a drag. Underpowered...I would say over achiever.

 

[MARV1]

All engines have their issues. Over the years I've gotten anywhere from 4k-8k miles before breaking down on my 600 HO engines... Bought a used '09 600 Dragon for my son and it was a piston eating biotch! Pulled it and sold engine and put in a carbed '08 and runs way better now and should get better fuel economy! My oldest son has an '11 600 RMK 144" and it was problem free for almost 2 years! The cheap azz brass center drive have out and took out both pistons and mechanical seal... But his had about 6500 miles on it! And yes we were getting worried about it before it went knowing it was soon...
They haven't been as reliable as the XLT of past which just flat out ran, oil and gas and tighten skid bolts and keep greased! Over 10k miles was a norm.

 

[0neoldfart]

Observations...

All engines have their issues. Over the years I've gotten anywhere from 4k-8k miles before breaking down on my 600 HO engines... Bought a used '09 600 Dragon for my son and it was a piston eating biotch! Pulled it and sold engine and put in a carbed '08 and runs way better now and should get better fuel economy! My oldest son has an '11 600 RMK 144" and it was problem free for almost 2 years! The cheap azz brass center drive have out and took out both pistons and mechanical seal... But his had about 6500 miles on it! And yes we were getting worried about it before it went knowing it was soon...
They haven't been as reliable as the XLT of past which just flat out ran, oil and gas and tighten skid bolts and keep greased! Over 10k miles was a norm.

The Pro RMK isn't as reliable as the XLT, but it is lighter, handles better, and will run away from it on any mountain. We as a group (sledders) want it all - but increased reliability comes at a premium - whether it be weight added, higher cost, or lower horsepower. It wasn't long ago that a 600 class sled made around 100 horsepower, weighed over 500 lbs dry, and required you to wear a kidney belt on the trail up to the alpine. Want more ponies? Spend money. Want better reliability? Add weight. Want better suspension or a lighter sled? Spend money...
I personally think that the manufacturers are doing a decent job in providing what we ask for the price range these sleds are selling at. They are using less fuel and oil (partly due to EPA regulations) then the sleds of a few years past. A custom built engine in a custom built sled is going to cost over double of MSRP (you get what you pay for), and they provide warranty as well. If you use the current power to weight ratios and compare them to any current automobile, the sled industry is light years ahead. Food for thought...

 

[cateye5312]

reliability

If we were to run a poll regarding reliability among the four major brands, honestly where would Polaris rank? At the bottom. No question in my mind. It would probably go something like this 1) Yamaha with all their four strokes but running close to them would be 2) SkiDoo then quite a bit farther away would be 3) Arctic Cat and then way down the list would be 4) Polaris. Just look at the volume and variety of problems on each forum and you get a general idea. And personally to me it looks like most of Polaris' problems are production related, not design related. Someone needs to kick some serious butt on the production floor.

I agree that we are asking for and the manufacturers are delivering a super light super powerful high performance product but again you ought to be able to expect that the bolts were tightened correctly and that the oil pump was bled properly for God's sake!

 

[sled_guy]

MH, I suspect there is an issue at Polaris where the engineers are designing stuff that the line can't build correctly. Maybe they need a good manufacturing engineer to shadow their regular engineers and say "We can't build that" from time to time.

sled_guy

 

[Reg2view]

If we were to run a poll regarding reliability among the four major brands, honestly where would Polaris rank? At the bottom. No question in my mind. It would probably go something like this 1) Yamaha with all their four strokes but running close to them would be 2) SkiDoo then quite a bit farther away would be 3) Arctic Cat and then way down the list would be 4) Polaris. Just look at the volume and variety of problems on each forum and you get a general idea. And personally to me it looks like most of Polaris' problems are production related, not design related. Someone needs to kick some serious butt on the production floor.

I agree that we are asking for and the manufacturers are delivering a super light super powerful high performance product but again you ought to be able to expect that the bolts were tightened correctly and that the oil pump was bled properly for God's sake!

Think you're right on in market perceptions, and if AC would have actually sold more proclimbs, they'd be tied for execution-sucks-the-most, too. The 11 pro had its share of big and niggling issues, too, and we won't speak about the IQ raw 800s and IQ 900s. The Pro, and for that matter Raw, RMK R&D group in Utah have some real talent. They continue to produce some really good design for a stock sled with limited resources. The execution is a whole 'nuther issue, and poo is has proven themselves consistently bad with manufacturing. Yep, design for manufacturing counts, too, and so does vendor sourcing - both AC and Poo are a couple notches below Doo and Y in their vendor management skills, and it's not a coincidence that the final product, especially new product, shows the results stated above. I'm hoping that others besides the OEM R&D folks are seeing these posts and market perceptions. Unfortunately, managers only pay attention to numbers and plantiff lawsuits.