If you have a new 2015 or updated you bearings read this

[the gman]

This is a heads up, not a bash so take it for what it's worth. I have changed many bearings on kits through the years and looked forward to timbersleds new bearing kit. I don't know if this is THE FIX, but I have noticed in the past that the keys have tried to roll on the shaft making it difficult to remove the bearing through the roughed up key area. With that being said I have real concerns about the shorter key being used on the chain case sprockets. The old keys were about 18mm long (as wide as the sprokets), but the new keys have been shortened to about 15mm to allow a roll pin to keep the bolt from loosening. Maybe if the bolt doesn't loosen the keys won't roll but I for one check these bolts when I check my chain and have gone back to the good ole red loctite. If you want the best of both worlds get a new longer key and grind down the end so you have full key way contact and the end ground round to use the new lock. Good luck and I hope the new bearing kits live long,
Garry

 

[retired motoman]

'15 bearings

The pre production '15 ridden last season (2000 miles) with double bearings.

Findings;
No issues (related to bearings) at 987 miles; compete tear down.
The good; bearing carriers easily pulled off shafts which were not grooved from flex.
Even with the china bearings (yes cheap as possible to define the improvement) were still useable. So were not changed.
Although other minor improvements were noted, everything was solid.

The bad; 1300 miles noise in track system. Bearings replaced with SKS.
Bearings haven't failed but very worn, seals gone.

Sprockets would not easily slip off shafts(grooving). Likely cause sprocket flex on shaft ends. Not sure longer keys would stop this but would not hurt.

2000 miles, SKS bearings started making noise. Disassembly showed bearings useable but running out of alignment, due to reduced thickness of the shim/spacer.

Determining reason;
The PP '15 double bearing system had a spacer between the bearings for lubing.
At 1300 miles the bearings were replaced using original spacers. Cause at this time was thought to be the cheap PP bearings.

Upon reassembly (1000 & 1300 miles) tighting the shaft cap bolts caused shim/spacer to crush and bearings to push the races. Reason for the bearing failure.

Fix;
All production '15's will not have the shim/spacer between double bearings.
Double bearings will be butted together staying aligned to races. The ability to grease does not seem to be affected.

Flexing has not been eliminated but;
The double bearing improves the overall rigidity and will reduce (or eliminate) bearing failures.

TS is always working to improve there design. We are fortunate to be involved in this exciting sport. It is not a perfect world and don't see anything in production that is a better single ski ride than TS/MH.

 

[summitboy]

The pre production '15 ridden last season (2000 miles) with double bearings.

Findings;
No issues (related to bearings) at 987 miles; compete tear down.
The good; bearing carriers easily pulled off shafts which were not grooved from flex.
Even with the china bearings (yes cheap as possible to define the improvement) were still useable. So were not changed.
Although other minor improvements were noted, everything was solid.

The bad; 1300 miles noise in track system. Bearings replaced with SKS.
Bearings haven't failed but very worn, seals gone.

Sprockets would not easily slip off shafts(grooving). Likely cause sprocket flex on shaft ends. Not sure longer keys would stop this but would not hurt.

2000 miles, SKS bearings started making noise. Disassembly showed bearings useable but running out of alignment, due to reduced thickness of the shim/spacer.

Determining reason;
The PP '15 double bearing system had a spacer between the bearings for lubing.
At 1300 miles the bearings were replaced using original spacers. Cause at this time was thought to be the cheap PP bearings.

Upon reassembly (1000 & 1300 miles) tighting the shaft cap bolts caused shim/spacer to crush and bearings to push the races. Reason for the bearing failure.

Fix;
All production '15's will not have the shim/spacer between double bearings.
Double bearings will be butted together staying aligned to races. The ability to grease does not seem to be affected.

Flexing has not been eliminated but;
The double bearing improves the overall rigidity and will reduce (or eliminate) bearing failures.

TS is always working to improve there design. We are fortunate to be involved in this exciting sport. It is not a perfect world and don't see anything in production that is a better single ski ride than TS/MH.

Soon. Very soon lol

 

[steve250f@hotmail.com]

Upgraded bearings????????

This new bearing kit is nice ,but don't think it is the solution .you have to give timbersled thumbs up for bringing it out though , but why would they not go to a system like 9 miler has in his 650 berg post .these self alining bearings have been used in sleds for years seems to me a much simpler solution .unless I'm missing something here ????

 

[the gman]

I totally agree timbersled has made my life more enjoyable. My post was to make everyone aware that this old farmer thinks going to a shorter key IS a mistake. I believe the lock on the chain case side isn't a bad idea, just not at the expense of a shorter key which has shown rolling issues on every kit I have taken apart. I removed the lock and installed longer keys on my 15 kit and just wanted to give everyone a heads up to use the old keys on there upgrade. With that being said IF someone does this, either use your old washers or remove the roll pin from your new washers and use red loctite on the bolt. THESE BOLTS NEED TO BE CHECK for loosening up throughout the season. They do loosen due to sprokets movement on spacers, not bolt movement and by putting a lock on the bolt, people that are a little lack on there maintenance, will still have problems. Nuff said....garry

 

[PalousePoo]

My opinion Garry is the sprockets also need a set screw over the key, and also 1/3 of the diameter around the sprocket so they will stay on the shaft where put. Holding sprockets and brgs on by forcing it all together with the end bolts, works, as long as the torque is maintained on the shaft end bolts. These things need love and attention, and more maintenance than my Pro's did, for trouble free miles. Props to Timbersled for making the brg upgrade kit so inexpensive.

 

[Manson456]

At some point it would be nice to see a splined shaft sprocket combo, like a countershaft sprocket setup . Obviously it would cost more to produce but we pay plenty for these kits that are flawed. These sprocket/shafts are not a press fit but become that way because of inferior design, materials etc. The inner bearing race on the last bearing I had to pull off broke into many pieces due to the swelling around the keyway area. The sprocket bolt had never been loose so that isn't the problem. Too much load on a single area. Disperse the load on more splines seems like the answer to me. Anyone agree?

 

[Niskibum]

My upgrade kit is still sitting on my living room floor, and I have never taken apart my track, so while I am trying to picture all the parts I am still clueless. A couple pics of what we are talking about would be helpful so that people like me would be able to pick up what we might need before the track is spread out all over the garage floor. Thanks.

 

[the gman]

Be aware the torgue specs on the axle shaft bolts are to high. 70 foot pounds is a big plenty, if you go to 100 you are over the torgue range of a 7/16 grade 8 bolt and may shatter the shoulder washer or break the bolt. Don't ask how I know this...

 

[41racing]

I just received my upgrade kit and was a little disappointed to find that the new bearings appear to be a cheap Chinese bearing. I've been around this style of ball bearings quite a bit and it's fairly evident they're a cheap bearing. Every quality bearing I've seen the manufacture was proud of their product and displayed their name on the bearing, not these. They'll probably be fine but I sure would have liked to see ntn bearings used. Maybe once they sell this kit at normal price they'll use the better bearings?

 

[ZippyTK]

Bearing axel shaft problem

Anyone else notice any side to side flex in the side panels? I installed the new bearing kit and ran it elevated in the shop to check it out before I hit the snow. Had LOTS of side to side flex and the chain went from way loose to to tight every rev. Measured (with dial indicator) shaft run out of .012" at the drive side end and side plate flex over .040"...turned out that the new shaft for the double bearings was bent...badly bent as supplied by TS. TS swapped it out for me no questions asked and I got the feeling they know this issue. IF I hadn't noticed it in the shop the bearings would have been ruined pretty quick. Glad I saw it before I had to deal with it out in the hills! I recommend actually checking yours to see what they supplied you!

 

[mrsnaglepuss]

Bearing grade kit

Anyone else notice any side to side flex in the side panels? I installed the new bearing kit and ran it elevated in the shop to check it out before I hit the snow. Had LOTS of side to side flex and the chain went from way loose to to tight every rev. Measured (with dial indicator) shaft run out of .012" at the drive side end and side plate flex over .040"...turned out that the new shaft for the double bearings was bent...badly bent as supplied by TS. TS swapped it out for me no questions asked and I got the feeling they know this issue. IF I hadn't noticed it in the shop the bearings would have been ruined pretty quick. Glad I saw it before I had to deal with it out in the hills! I recommend actually checking yours to see what they supplied you!

There is no question there is flexation on the side panels. It's a lot more pronounced if you have the kit trenched in deep snow, ski up in the air and now your blipping the throttle rocking the bike back and forth trying to get unstuck, the side loading on the bearings is now critical. I think TS would have been better off to go with one big bearing the size of each of the housings. As it is now any misalignment or side loading on the bearings, only one will end up taking 90% of the side loading. Stiffer side panels or bracing would reduce this action and keep everything straight and true.
I highly recommend that everyone who dose a bearing upgrade kit, track swap, suspension work etc. suspend there kit safely and idle it in first gear, before you start blipping the throttle and check the run out and alignment of all work performed. Good catch Zippy TK.

 

[mrsnaglepuss]

Be aware the torgue specs on the axle shaft bolts are to high. 70 foot pounds is a big plenty, if you go to 100 you are over the torgue range of a 7/16 grade 8 bolt and may shatter the shoulder washer or break the bolt. Don't ask how I know this...

Yes 100 ft. lb. is a little on the high side for grade and bolt size. Did mine to 85ft. lb. with blue loctite.

 

[mrsnaglepuss]

At some point it would be nice to see a splined shaft sprocket combo, like a countershaft sprocket setup . Obviously it would cost more to produce but we pay plenty for these kits that are flawed. These sprocket/shafts are not a press fit but become that way because of inferior design, materials etc. The inner bearing race on the last bearing I had to pull off broke into many pieces due to the swelling around the keyway area. The sprocket bolt had never been loose so that isn't the problem. Too much load on a single area. Disperse the load on more splines seems like the answer to me. Anyone agree?

I agree 100%. Allen, Blazer are splined shafts on the 2016 kits?

 

[mrsnaglepuss]

This is a heads up, not a bash so take it for what it's worth. I have changed many bearings on kits through the years and looked forward to timbersleds new bearing kit. I don't know if this is THE FIX, but I have noticed in the past that the keys have tried to roll on the shaft making it difficult to remove the bearing through the roughed up key area. With that being said I have real concerns about the shorter key being used on the chain case sprockets. The old keys were about 18mm long (as wide as the sprokets), but the new keys have been shortened to about 15mm to allow a roll pin to keep the bolt from loosening. Maybe if the bolt doesn't loosen the keys won't roll but I for one check these bolts when I check my chain and have gone back to the good ole red loctite. If you want the best of both worlds get a new longer key and grind down the end so you have full key way contact and the end ground round to use the new lock. Good luck and I hope the new bearing kits live long,
Garry

Garry good observation and comments. I think the answer is simply hardened splined shafts. I cannot believe more owners have not responded or been active on the topic and this thread, it's not bashing, it's trying to make the kits more reliable, less maintenance, thus less expensive and ultimately more time riding. Retired motorman has logged more seat time than a 20 year old coon hound sittin on the porch. His comments and observations are gold on this subject.

 

[the gman]

Latest observation, keys ways are cut at .250 in sprockets and shaft. Keys supplied with my 15 kit and bearing kits are .002 undersized. Also why would you drill the 25/64 hole for a 3/8 bolt as instructions recommend. You are introducing cocking although not much. Also I got my timbersled aluminum chain case cover. Best investment for my 15 kit so far, just wish it would of came with it. Seems to make flex less.

 

[41racing]

Just getting around to installing my update kit and decided to chuck my driveshafts up in the lathe and check runout. I didn't bother to measure it cause it's so much you can see the shaft jumping around. The original shaft is much worse that the new shaft tsled supplied with the update kit. Gonna put a dial indicator on it and get the actual measurement. Gonna see if I can scare up a set of v blocks and measure it that way too.

 

[Wheel House Motorsports]

Just getting around to installing my update kit and decided to chuck my driveshafts up in the lathe and check runout. I didn't bother to measure it cause it's so much you can see the shaft jumping around. The original shaft is much worse that the new shaft tsled supplied with the update kit. Gonna put a dial indicator on it and get the actual measurement. Gonna see if I can scare up a set of v blocks and measure it that way too.

when doing the double bearing update overlaying the plates and transfer drilling the driveshaft holes together is key, there is enough slop with the template you can get them pretty out of whack.

TS gang, self aligning bearings, they are the way. been running them on homeade kits with tons of hours. $10 from the local tractor shop, and they dont mind a little missaligment, and the bearings dont get smoked when you twist a sideplate a little bit. same tech sleds and farm equipment have been doing since the begining. its not magic.

 

[41racing]

when doing the double bearing update overlaying the plates and transfer drilling the driveshaft holes together is key, there is enough slop with the template you can get them pretty out of whack.

TS gang, self aligning bearings, they are the way. been running them on homeade kits with tons of hours. $10 from the local tractor shop, and they dont mind a little missaligment, and the bearings dont get smoked when you twist a sideplate a little bit. same tech sleds and farm equipment have been doing since the begining. its not magic.

I had both side panels off to do a little straightening so I did bolt them together and drill both panels at the same time. That was the only way tondo it that made sence to me anyway.