I need to clear my mind here...

[Norway]

First of, I hear ya! Lot of b!tchin going on..

But to be honest I have to disagree with the core of your statement. Although the internet with its forums usually blow things out of proportion, there is more often than not a core of truth to it.

I own a 2011 pro and I'm blown away with its capabilities, no buts about it.
But I still demand the same kind of deal that I got before! To get right down to it, I demand that say polaris stays behind what they promote!!!
I did not make their adds or their videos, THEY DID! If they cant make a 150Hp engine that wil reach 3000miles with no probs like before, then simply say so. Put maximum service limit on pistons to 2500 miles. Put "inspect and measure cylinder bore every 2000 miles" in the manual.

The 440's of yonder years and the 600 race sleds of today can come with no warranty, yes? Pushed to the limit and for racing only. I get it and make my choice accordingly. But my pro is a stock engine produced for the masses with no warning of "unreliable due to government regulations on emissions".

Compare with the 900 scenario, they could not make it work so they pulled the plug. If they cant make a 800 twin with piston to cylinder wall clearance a bit below THEIR OWN service limit, then dont sell it.
Same with Cats drive belt issues last year. Dont insult your customers with "wrong break-in for the 5th time" when they have worn green for decades.

Just deliver what you promise. If that is a problem, promise less!

 

[4strokeperformance]

I have been riding Yamaha's since 1983. After many, many miles and different sleds, (all Yamaha's) I couldn't help myself and bought a Pro 800 163 this year. I only have around 500 miles on it but it has truly been one of the funnest years I have ever had. After reading all the bad and negative on the internet I have been scared spitless about several things, but to this point it has been flawless. After all my years on Yamaha, I never had a break down. Ever. I really would like to keep that streak going. With that said, My son goes with me on a Nytro so I know i'll get out one way or the other. It's not even close to the Pro but it's my security just in case.

 

[Merlin]

Very well said!

First of, I hear ya! Lot of b!tchin going on..

But to be honest I have to disagree with the core of your statement. Although the internet with its forums usually blow things out of proportion, there is more often than not a core of truth to it.

I own a 2011 pro and I'm blown away with its capabilities, no buts about it.
But I still demand the same kind of deal that I got before! To get right down to it, I demand that say polaris stays behind what they promote!!!
I did not make their adds or their videos, THEY DID! If they cant make a 150Hp engine that wil reach 3000miles with no probs like before, then simply say so. Put maximum service limit on pistons to 2500 miles. Put "inspect and measure cylinder bore every 2000 miles" in the manual.

The 440's of yonder years and the 600 race sleds of today can come with no warranty, yes? Pushed to the limit and for racing only. I get it and make my choice accordingly. But my pro is a stock engine produced for the masses with no warning of "unreliable due to government regulations on emissions".

Compare with the 900 scenario, they could not make it work so they pulled the plug. If they cant make a 800 twin with piston to cylinder wall clearance a bit below THEIR OWN service limit, then dont sell it.
Same with Cats drive belt issues last year. Dont insult your customers with "wrong break-in for the 5th time" when they have worn green for decades.

Just deliver what you promise. If that is a problem, promise less!

 

[snowmobiler]

for 13k i could buy 1 old used phazer and have allmost 13k left for gas.

 

[Dizzle]

Not to mention drivetrain issues which every 2013 Pro owner had to fix or modify

I was told that out of 10,000 2013 Pro RMK's produced, only 92 of them were reported with belt drive problems. I'd say thats a pretty darn good statistic if you ask me. I bet AC or Ski Doo wouldn't even issue a "fix" to the "problem" with those kinds of numbers.

you can't tell me theres anywhere near 12k worth of product in a snowmobile, not even close...

I'm not saying theres 12k worth of product, what you/we are paying for is the engineering behind the sled. From the motors to chassis, suspension, track, steering geometry...I wouldn't even want to take a guess at the amount of man hours that is put into these mountain sleds...or any sled for that matter.

If they cant make a 800 twin with piston to cylinder wall clearance a bit below THEIR OWN service limit, then dont sell it.

A see piston to wall tolerances mentioned a couple times in here and that great. The reason for them making a "loose" motor is they tend to make more power. The trade-off is life span. A loose motor is gonna burn more oil, vibrate more, run louder, but will make more power. I believe manufactures can get away with higher tolerances for engine balancing as well. If you run a tight gap, grams turn into pounds and if you're not careful...you're sideloading the ring and scorching walls.

I'm terrible with math, but depending on where you look...different websites will say that a "rule of thumb" is 15-17cc's for every 1 horsepower. If you were to equate this to the 800 motors, that comes out to 53.3 horsepower. How happy would we be with our sleds if they made 53 horsepower? And thats not even factoring in parasitic loss either haha. These little bastards churning out 70+ hp per cylinder in a .800 cc motor.

Take that same power output and plug it into a V8. If you small block 350 made the same power per hole as these motors, you would be at 560...even though your'e over 5 times larger in displacement. Your 350 Chevy = 5, 735.4724 cc. Why in the hell aren't we all driving around in 600 plus hp pickups!? lol!

 

[m8magicandmystery]

take an old mach z...or for that matter an old blizzard...and they will still run with any stock 800 in a short drag...so the motors half moved forward abit...clutching a bit more...suspension as well...

but truthfully ...the sled improvements can not be credited at all to any manufacturer..
the sled improvements are credited to the manufacturers that listened to the user..and
the sled manufacturer that followed the aftermarket..

 

[Skeld]

Two strokes make more power per displacement than four strokes, this is not surprising. These machines are also incredibly inefficient. A tractor trailer weighing 100,000 pounds can get 5 MPG. And my sled in deep snow can possibly get 8 MPG. Kind of interesting.

 

[mtbroncrider]

Two strokes make more power per displacement than four strokes, this is not surprising. These machines are also incredibly inefficient. A tractor trailer weighing 100,000 pounds can get 5 MPG. And my sled in deep snow can possibly get 8 MPG. Kind of interesting.

I run about 100k a lot with my KW......5 would be awesome this time of year...it's more like 4.3 right now...LOL

feeding full fuel to anything is gonna lower mileage......and it takes a lot of fuel for that little 2 smoke to make the power it does

but damn I like it!!!

 

[Pokey]

Calm down and put everything in perspective, the only things we hear about are the failures. We don't hear from the 99% that have no issues from their machines. All I am seeing here is that we expect a $12K machine to perform flawlessly day in and day out. A $100K pickup can have just as many issues and it is the same thing, we only hear about the problems. If it is designed by man, built by man, assembled by man, there will be failures.

 

[prorider10]

maybe you guys nee to ride harder, we pound our pros every weekend, not a problem, just some tree marks

 

[meathooker]

Two strokes make more power per displacement than four strokes, this is not surprising. These machines are also incredibly inefficient. A tractor trailer weighing 100,000 pounds can get 5 MPG. And my sled in deep snow can possibly get 8 MPG. Kind of interesting.

8!?!?! I wish my sled got 8. There are days my stock 600 gets 4-5.

 

[Dizzle]

the only things we hear about are the failures.

This is true. And the "failures" that we do hear about, how many of them have admitted to rider error? What if someone grabbed the wrong gas can, or ran it dry of oil? Think they would admitt it? Nah - it's easier to get on the internet and place blame elsewhere

 

[550iq]

This discussion has been going on since I started sledding in 1964. Sleds of dubious design and construction put out to the consumer with good and bad results. The consumer demands whatever, the factories provide, reality sets in and the crying or elation starts. Every sled out there follows this pattern. Sometimes, designs change fast due to out-of-the-blue consumer demands. I believe the factories cannot "see" today's problems because they are designing the 2018 sleds and to look back is tough. I can imagine the factories wondering "what the F^*#, they got what they wanted, what's the problem". It is the way its always been folks, get over it. 550iq

 

[winter brew]

I agree, snowmobiles are amazing machines that see a huge range of use and abuse. Im surprised they last as long as they do in some cases.
The vast majority of the complaints lately in the Polaris forum are (IMO) easily preventable. The root causes are very minor mistakes in design or assembly processes that never should have happened, or at least have been caught in testing.
For the prices we pay for these things, the miles and time we travel to get to snow, the sometimes short riding season.....I totally get why some people are upset.

 

[03summit700]

A few years back I was told. You can have performance or reliability. Which do you want?

 

[Skeld]

8!?!?! I wish my sled got 8. There are days my stock 600 gets 4-5.

Ouch, not good. When you are a flatlander like me you don't have to hold it wide open all the time.

I'm also hoping my motor will live a lot longer than all of the horror stories on here because of that.

 

[Dootimes2]

I think alot of the problem is when the manufacturer knows they have a problem and either denies it or does not fix it. The pro came out in 2011 and they have still not fixed the cooling problems. Do not even tell me they do not know about it, they do. I just spent $800 to fix a problem they have known about for 2 years. My doo's never heated up on either hardpack or anywhere else EVER. We have to run with scratchers down and still have to pack snow on top of tunnel when the doo's and cats have no problems at all. Do not get me wrong I love my pro's and will buy another one. The problem with most people is they do not like fixing problems on their own when the manufacturer knows about it, especially when the problem is not new. Funny how aftermarket companies can fix the problem in days and the big money manufacturer cannot do it in years and when they do they use aftermarket fixes. I do not expect my sleds to last for 5000 miles with no problems, but when a design flaw or bad machining ( i.e. out of spec cylinders, a-arms pulling apart. ) is a known problem they owe it to us to fix them properly and not just replace them with the same crappy parts. And dizzle how much would that 350 chevy make for hp if it were a 2 stroke. You also mentioned that if you run too tight of piston to cylinder tollerance you run the risk of rings scuffing the cylinder ( True Enough ), but I think you have to admit that polaris f'ed up and went too far the other way and caused piston and cylinder skirts to break. Not a very good trade off by any means. I cannot get away with making the same mistakes over and over in my business and neither should they. My customers come first, but with polaris it does not always seem that way. Enough said tomorow I ride.

 

[High Velocity]

I think alot of the problem is when the manufacturer knows they have a problem and either denies it or does not fix it. The pro came out in 2011 and they have still not fixed the cooling problems. Do not even tell me they do not know about it, they do. I just spent $800 to fix a problem they have known about for 2 years. My doo's never heated up on either hardpack or anywhere else EVER. We have to run with scratchers down and still have to pack snow on top of tunnel when the doo's and cats have no problems at all.

I have a '12 Pro 800 162 X 3" and I don't have cooling problems. All I've done to mine is get rid of the ported snowflap and put on an IQ snowflap. Even on hardpack/ icy trails, with my scratchers down, my engine runs between 125*-130*.



Sent from my iPad when I should be sledding.

 

[Dizzle]

The pro came out in 2011 and they have still not fixed the cooling problems.

See, I'm sorry and I'm not trying to offend you, but I think this is nit-picking. Yes I had to ride with the scratchers down the last time I visited my cousin in McCall but only until we got off the beaten path...once we hit a few inches of loose snow they were fine. These are specialized mountain sleds, not touring machines. Maybe a crossover of some sort would fit you better?

And dizzle how much would that 350 chevy make for hp if it were a 2 stroke.

That I couldn't tell you, I'm not smart enough

But you would think, by the sheer displacement alone, that it would be somewhat closer. Then factor in oxygen levels and such...I mean, not to bang on Chevy but damn..

but I think you have to admit that polaris f'ed up and went too far the other way and caused piston and cylinder skirts to break.

Damn. I knew of the IQ 800's blowing, but not the newer motors in the Pro chasis..

 

[BLSDEEP]

YIKES! Please be careful what we wish for! Polaris, hear me loud and CLEAR. The pro Chassis is exactly the right direction! I know your working on the belt and I know your heading for 400lbs!!!!! THAT IS WHAT WE WANT. Please just tweak the 800 mill as necessary for reliability. Thats all. I dont want a new chassis or a new motor. I love the 2013 Pro RMK. Its is "almost" perfect.
Just make little tweaks to what is a Great Product!