Hydrogen Powered Car, finally a common sense article

[Wade]

MIT Hydrogen Powered Car Article

Finally an article that goes to the heart of the problem with the Hydrogen Economy. The guy's obviously not in the News Media or Politics. Note the comment, a hydrogen powered car produces "more greenhouse gases" than gas (that's because it's made from natural gas), and is only "20 to 25 percent efficient" (that's a sucky efficiency).

I do somewhat take exception to his love of battery powered cars. They aren't the end all either. But, at least you can find a plugin. There problem is with the batteries. The lead, the lithium, there tendency to become less efficient every time you recharge the, and the need to replace them ($$$$). Although, some can be recycled fairly easily. Plus how many power plants does it take to recharge all the cars?

 

[xrated]

hydrogen cars as it stands now have to break down hydrocarbons to work...the carbon is removed and dumped out in the process right into the air

I'm reading a book right now that explains a bit better. I will copy what they have to say latter.

 

[xrated]

oh and that car at those prices won't last. Someone will come up with a better electric hybrid that is cheaper, more efficent and better for the world. Somethign along the lines of a highly efficent, clean diesel hybrid.

 

[Ollie]

The other major problem with battery powered cars is that fact we don't have enough power plants to power em. California has rolling brown out now, imagine what would happen if you had a few million electric cars plugged in.

 

[xrated]

NUCLEAR and COAL and we won't have to worry...well except about updating the grid.

 

[ruffryder]

..well except about updating the grid.

Don't worry, I am on it!

 

[Dogmeat]

MIT Hydrogen Powered Car Article

Finally an article that goes to the heart of the problem with the Hydrogen Economy. The guy's obviously not in the News Media or Politics. Note the comment, a hydrogen powered car produces "more greenhouse gases" than gas (that's because it's made from natural gas), and is only "20 to 25 percent efficient" (that's a sucky efficiency).

I do somewhat take exception to his love of battery powered cars. They aren't the end all either. But, at least you can find a plugin. There problem is with the batteries. The lead, the lithium, there tendency to become less efficient every time you recharge the, and the need to replace them ($$$$). Although, some can be recycled fairly easily. Plus how many power plants does it take to recharge all the cars?

I've been trying to explain this to people for years now. The hydrogen fuel cells, even though now they are expensive, will eventually become economical. The fuel cells are not the problem. It's the fundamental fact that the most effecient process for CREATING HYDROGEN FUEL comes from electrolzying water. IE, it takes water and electricity to make hydrogen.

So picture 250,000,000 hydrogen powered cars and trucks. Water is already in huge shortage across the world, the US included .... electricity .... how do we make electricity? We burn coal. So let's say we need that much extra electricity and water ... to make hydrogen.

So we just used up more of the most valuable resource on the planet (water) and we just burned god only knows how much more of the filthiest fuel on the planet (coal) to save the planet because our gas powered cars are so evil.

Wonderful.

 

[Ollie]

Dogmeat
How many times have I told you not to use logic.
It confuses people

 

[khaddon2110]

So picture 250,000,000 hydrogen powered cars and trucks. Water is already in huge shortage across the world, the US included .... electricity .... how do we make electricity? We burn coal. So let's say we need that much extra electricity and water ... to make hydrogen.

So we just used up more of the most valuable resource on the planet (water) and we just burned god only knows how much more of the filthiest fuel on the planet (coal) to save the planet because our gas powered cars are so evil.

Wonderful.

so where does the water go once it is used......???

 

[Dogmeat]

so where does the water go once it is used......???

Good question

When I did my sr. design project on this hydrogen crap the math that I used assumed liquid water as the byproduct of the reaction ...

So, your car's "exhaust" is effecticley going to be water so to speak.

I would wager that for these hydrogen cars to be effective you would effectivley need a way to recycle this fuel, so you'd probably have a "fill tank" or something of that nature for it to be recycled.

 

[xrated]

Good question

When I did my sr. design project on this hydrogen crap the math that I used assumed liquid water as the byproduct of the reaction ...

So, your car's "exhaust" is effecticley going to be water so to speak.

I would wager that for these hydrogen cars to be effective you would effectivley need a way to recycle this fuel, so you'd probably have a "fill tank" or something of that nature for it to be recycled.

hmmm....water as exhaust maybe cool in the south. But what does water do in the winter?

 

[Dogmeat]

hmmm....water as exhaust maybe cool in the south. But what does water do in the winter?

Ah ha! And now we see an example of why these hydrogen cars aren't readily available right now even though Al Gore says they should be and it's a vast right wing conspiracy keeping these "green technologies" under wraps!

 

[Wade]

The most efficient way to make Hydrogen is by catalytically/chemically cracking a CH4 (methane). Remove the carbon atom, and pump the hydrogen into a tank at 3500 psi. By product, a buttt load of carbon dioxide and some hydrogen. 90% of the US hydrogen production is made this way.

Even in a fuel cell the exhaust is water, and it's fairly warm. You could condense it, since it would be good distilled water. Or, you could just let it go into the air, and it would eventually rain out somewhere. Electrolysis probably works best with distilled/deionized water.

Even with 250 million cars, each with full tanks of hydrogen, that would only be a 60 acre lake with a max depth of 30 feet. Not a lot of water.

Fuel cells may one day become cheap, but someone's going to have to figure out how to build a tuff membrane. And, not use platinum as a catalyst.

How Fuel Cells Work

 

[Dogmeat]

The most efficient way to make Hydrogen is by catalytically/chemically cracking a CH4 (methane). Remove the carbon atom, and pump the hydrogen into a tank at 3500 psi. By product, a buttt load of carbon dioxide and some hydrogen. 90% of the US hydrogen production is made this way.

Even in a fuel cell the exhaust is water, and it's fairly warm. You could condense it, since it would be good distilled water. Or, you could just let it go into the air, and it would eventually rain out somewhere. Electrolysis probably works best with distilled/deionized water.

Even with 250 million cars, each with full tanks of hydrogen, that would only be a 60 acre lake with a max depth of 30 feet. Not a lot of water.

Fuel cells may one day become cheap, but someone's going to have to figure out how to build a tuff membrane. And, not use platinum as a catalyst.

How Fuel Cells Work

What is the methodology for cracking a methane molecule? I guess I was under the impression the electrolosys of water was the most common way.

 

[Wade]

On way is "Steam reforming" it reacts methane and water (as steam) over a nickel catalyst, which produces hydrogen and carbon monoxide. The Methane gives up 4 hydrogen atoms, and the water gives up another two hydrogen atoms.

CH4 + H2O + HEAT -> CO + 6 H

Then they run the CO and more steam over another catalysis (NiSiO2???), and it makes more hydrogen.

CO + H20 + HEAT -> CO2 + 2 H

70% efficient due to all the heat needed. But, this is subjective, since your using Methane to make the heat also.
50% for electrolysis. But, people are working on better methods.

 

[xrated]

from The Bottomless Well page 122, "If we make methane gas our prime source of hydrogen, we will, in effect, only burn about half the combustible fuel and discard the rest. This isn't "efficient" at all..."

If you were to use electricty, "The efficiency numbers are equally bad, or worse, if we use electricity at the outset to extract hydrogen from water. As already noted, the complete cycle of water to hyrdogen consumes four times as much electricity as it produces. The case for harnessing any past of our energy economy to this cycle centers on the assumption of "free" solar(or nuclear) electricity, with the hyrdogen simply used for highly inefficient storage"

Sounds like fuel cells aren't that great to me.