How many more?

[The Fourth Wolf]

How many more of us have to die before we make avalanche safety an ingrained part of our sport?

A beacon is not an avalanche safety device, it's an avalanche victim recovery device. So are probes (pinpoint the body), and shovels (dig out the body).

Watching the weather, reading the snow and paying attention to the clues that almost always say "DON'T RIDE HERE TODAY" should be the foundation of everything else we do as mountain riders.

The conditions that create avalanches are predictable which makes them avoidable. It is this avoidability factor that makes avy deaths so tragic, visible, and frustrating.

My heart goes out to the families of guys killed in Meeker/Golden. I just hope somebody new will be inspired to wake the eff up.

If you're going to ride the mountains, before you mod your sled, mod your head.

 

[AKSNOWRIDER]

I agree, it only takes a minute before you walk out the door in the morning to log on and check the avy sites..thats what they are for, talk about it on the way to ride...whats happened weather wise this winter?..what are current conditions...once you get unloaded and find a place to play, find a shallow slope with the same exposure of the bigger slopes, do a small sidehill across it, and reach in and check for weak/strong layers in the wall left by your track.....get in the habit of doing this everywhere you ride and you will know what the actual conditions are on the slopes you are on..also..stop parking at the bottom..get out of any runout areas.....and 1 rider on the hill at a time......we either do this for our selves..or the goverment is gonna do it for us..via shutting down our riding.....

 

[Bendy]

Avy

We all know the dangers of riding in the Mountains. And yes it has hit close to home more than once with deaths of riders in our area. It can happen to anyone of us. So lets not only use the proper equipment when out in the hills, but take time and educate ourselves on snow conditions. Ride with people you trust are educated in avy safety and rescue. Your equipment doesn't do you any good when its attached to your sled under solidified snow!

 

[James T Kirk]

I agree, it only takes a minute before you walk out the door in the morning to log on and check the avy sites..thats what they are for, talk about it on the way to ride...whats happened weather wise this winter?..what are current conditions...once you get unloaded and find a place to play, find a shallow slope with the same exposure of the bigger slopes, do a small sidehill across it, and reach in and check for weak/strong layers in the wall left by your track.....get in the habit of doing this everywhere you ride and you will know what the actual conditions are on the slopes you are on..also..stop parking at the bottom..get out of any runout areas.....and 1 rider on the hill at a time......we either do this for our selves..or the goverment is gonna do it for us..via shutting down our riding.....

Although you are thinking in the right direction, using the snow that has been disturbed by your track to try and read layers in the snow will not be very effective. Take the time to dig a proper pit. If you dont know how to do that, take a course and read Snow Sense.

 

[ANDRES]

i dont get it im pretty sure when 90% of riders decide on a day in which to ride one of the first things to do would be to check, whether it snowed and if it did how much this is the first indication of how the avy situation is going to be if it snowed 30cm over night stay off the steep stuff.common sense. just a rant sorry

 

[TIM]

ok you check the report and it is moderate. do you climb or not?

 

[AKSNOWRIDER]

Although you are thinking in the right direction, using the snow that has been disturbed by your track to try and read layers in the snow will not be very effective. Take the time to dig a proper pit. If you dont know how to do that, take a course and read Snow Sense.

try it, if you cut a clean trench with your track on a slope..its very effective..and thats straight from two of the top avy specialist in the world...(http://www.alaskaavalanche.com/Home.html) which is where I learned it....all part of a snowmobile intensive avy class...when I took their course it was both AST-1&2 as well as a snowmobile specific on the mountain class all tied up togeather, that was many years ago, Jill did the classroom part, doug did the out on the mountain on sled part..and at least at that time..they were considered the best in the world....

 

[AKSNOWRIDER]

ok you check the report and it is moderate. do you climb or not?

it all depends on what the slopes in your riding area tell you when you do a pit test..just because avy danger is moderate..doesnt mean you cant climb, you could find it is only moderate on wind loaded south facing slopes..where north facing unloaded slopes are quite stabile...

 

[snowmobiler]

ok you check the report and it is moderate. do you climb or not?

now that is a good question and needs discussed.i would have to say absolutely NOT.but i would also like to hear from some of the avy safety gods on here.captain?

 

[AKSNOWRIDER]

try it, if you cut a clean trench with your track on a slope..its very effective..and thats straight from two of the top avy specialist in the world...(http://www.alaskaavalanche.com/Home.html) which is where I learned it....all part of a snowmobile intensive avy class...when I took their course it was both AST-1&2 as well as a snowmobile specific on the mountain class all tied up togeather, that was many years ago, Jill did the classroom part, doug did the out on the mountain on sled part..and at least at that time..they were considered the best in the world....

for those who dont reconize Jill and Dougs names...you should reconize their books, because from what I have seen over the years..its pretty much mandatory reading for all AST-1 classes... the most popular book is called snow sense....they also have several others including snowstruck....both books are well worth reading...

 

[James T Kirk]

try it, if you cut a clean trench with your track on a slope..its very effective..and thats straight from two of the top avy specialist in the world...(http://www.alaskaavalanche.com/Home.html) which is where I learned it....all part of a snowmobile intensive avy class...when I took their course it was both AST-1&2 as well as a snowmobile specific on the mountain class all tied up togeather, that was many years ago, Jill did the classroom part, doug did the out on the mountain on sled part..and at least at that time..they were considered the best in the world....

There is a big difference between a quick look at the upper layers of the snowpack, which is what you are doing looking in your trench, and doing a detailed snow profile with a stability test such as a shovel shear test. I think your instructors would agree.

As for Doug and Jill, I know of them and agree that they are at the top of the game. The book Snow Sense I referred to in my previous post was written by them and I think it is a very valuable tool that everyone should read.

 

[TIM]

now that is a good question and needs discussed.i would have to say absolutely NOT.but i would also like to hear from some of the avy safety gods on here.captain?

remeber the rating go low, moderate, considerable, high, extreme

when was the last time you saw a low rating in the alpine in the winter?

 

[skibreeze]

As sad as it may be, it will never end. No different that the 40,000 people that are killed every single year in car crashes. You can try to educate, but some people will never listen. Luckily, I got a second chance after riding for years being ignorant to the dangers. I have definitely changed my riding habits, but it is impossible to eliminate the risk unless I stop riding. That's not gonna happen.

 

[AKSNOWRIDER]

you must ride a short track? mine leaves a deep trench, most of the time completely thru to dirt...but even at that, the trench is still a good starting point to digging a deeper hole, ..the thing is...how many times out riding do you or the riders around you actually stop and dig a test pit? very seldom i bet..and ..by using your trench, (especially when you are doing this every trip all season) you should already have an idea of whats under the top layers....the trench is a quick simple way to sample conditions fast and easy everyplace you ride......

 

[The Fourth Wolf]

now that is a good question and needs discussed. I would have to say absolutely NOT.but i would also like to hear from some of the avy safety gods on here.captain?

That's your call and in this context caution is never wrong. Like AKSNOWRIDER said, it depends. Which is almost always the answer.

A moderate rating means natural avy's are not likely and human triggered avy's are possible.

For me it boils down to spot-specific evaluation of the conditions. The south vs north face is an excellent example. Along any given east-west ridge or valley the south face will get more sun than the north. Depending on the snowpack composition, load, slope and temperature trend it could be more or less stable than the north facing slope adjacent to it.

Our challenge is to try and determine when the slopes are stable and time our rides for those days.

When the guru's say "moderate" I study the on site conditions carefully. Sometimes my answer is "Not that hill, not today" and I find an alternative place, very often right across the valley.

 

[James T Kirk]

now that is a good question and needs discussed.i would have to say absolutely NOT.but i would also like to hear from some of the avy safety gods on here.captain?

I'm guessing you are just stirring the pot based on past posts but here goes:


What did your stability tests/pit tell you? Shovel shear test? Recent activity? Why is it moderate and not considerable or low? Which aspects/elevations are the forecasters concerned about? Whats the weather doing? recent snow, wind or rapid temp change since the forecast? What has your snowpack been like throughout the season? Any persistant weak layers that could react to a big trigger like a sled? Cut some small non consequential convex rolls on a similar aspect and elevation as what you want to climb, any reaction?

If you can get satisfactory answers to those questions, then it should be a good day. An avy forcast alone is never enough information.

Up here on the BC Coast, Moderate tends to be pretty stable, but we almost never see a rating of Low, so you have to read the report in that context and compare it to what you observe in the mountains.

 

[snowmobiler]

thanks.trying to learn.
sounds there is no good answer without doing those tests first.
"caution is never wrong" or stay home seems like the safest way to roll.

 

[snowmobiler]

when was the last time you saw a low rating in the alpine in the winter?

i dont get to see any ratings.........

The Northwest Weather and Avalanche Center in Washington tracks conditions in the Cascades from the Canadian border south to Oregon's Mount Hood. The Mount Shasta Avalanche Center keeps tabs on dangers in northern California.
But the Oregon Cascades - from the California border north to Mount Hood - don't have a dedicated avalanche forecast center.

 

[kai]

ok you check the report and it is moderate. do you climb or not?

You make a decision based on all the info you have collected.
Then if you do choose to climb, you do it as safely as possible.
One person on the slope at a time, no spectating in the runout zone, spot from a safe area. Steer clear of slopes that are threatened by cornices, they can be huge triggers. Avoid wind loaded slopes and avoid ridges that have shallow snow levels because it is easier to trigger a slide in these areas.
And always carry a shovel probe and transceiver and be proficient with the transceiver, practice often.
I also recommend an air bag, you need a pack anyways so why not make it an airbag.
Looking at the photo of the Golden slide, IMO I think that an airbag could
have had a different outcome as there was no trees to inflict trauma and the runout zone was flat not a terrain trap.

 

[Flange]

ok you check the report and it is moderate. do you climb or not?

It's not that simply. These avy ratings are just a general thing. You need to read, analyze, and understand the entire avy report. Then you can decide whether or not you even go riding, where you might go, and the terrain you will ride when you get there.