How important is re-mapping?

[G-Force]

Looking at building my first snow bike. Have the kit on order, snow checked a Riot LE
Now for the bike.. It will only be a play bike, I have a sled for the deep/mountain days. I just want something playful I can bomb along beside the trails as the wife learns to ride a sled.

Have it narrowed down to an '18 KTM 450 SX, or an '18 YZ 450F. Riding be -10*C to +10*C, and between 2,000 - 4,500' elevation. Just wondering how critical re-,sapping the bike will be, if at all? Have read where some guys are having issues over-feeling and getting fuel into the engine oil? Would re-mappping things help? Or am I way overthinking things. Just want to make the best choice possible, the first time.
Thanks in advance!

 

[barkbuster]

Fuel re mapping is more to correct for opening up the air box, and exhaust. The efi system will compensate for altitude and temp. on its own. The over fuelling issue is due to the engine temp being too low, and the efi system staying in warm up mode and adding more fuel. This issue is addressed by managing engine temp with hotter thermostat, shunting radiators, blocking airflow to radiators, engine blankets, ect. The goal is to maintain an engine temp of at least 180 deg f.

 

[M5-]

What he said.

I will concede there are small improvements available in the way the fuel can be delivered and when it is delivered but by in large the manufactures are not leaving a ton extra of performance on the table these days. Claims of 8hp yada yada through a remap I call BS. You can get improvements via fine tuning the fuel and timing which will help in setting up a better running bike. A bone stock bike is going to run pretty friggin well out of the box these days if you maintain your temps as stated. So is a remap necessary, no, is it something to consider, maybe down the road once you run out of things to spend money on. You really cant get a bunch more HP without making physical changes to the motor ie. cams and porting and high comp pistons, race fuel yada yada. More air, more fuel equals more power.

Buy a bike, get a Tstat, shrouds, engine blanket and my bet is all you will do is add gas and do oil changes.

M5

 

[Excalibur]

Agreed with everything said in the prior responses. A problem associated with the warm up/over fueling of the stock ECU is you will end up diluting the oil with fuel. The challenge is keeping engine temps consistently above 160F at which point the warm up over fueling stops. You will also have days of trying to get it cooled down. These bikes can be managed by a Tstat, engine blankets, blocking and unblocking the rads. You will find quite a variance of conditions that affect engine temps even with the right gear. Having a snow specific tune that drops that warm up temp/over fueling is also one way to keep excess fuel out of the crankcase. PR2 has a good premapped ECU. I have it currently on three bikes. I did not purchase it for the possible performance gains, just keeping these money pits alive as long as possible!



Link to some PR2 info https://www.snowest.com/forum/showthread.php?t=422901&highlight=PR2

 

[G-Force]

Thanks guys ! Yes, I wasn't looking for more performance, just to correct the over-fuelling issue. Seems that's more an operating temp deal than tune, so that eliminates a variable when it comes to deciding which bike!

With that sorted, which would be the more reliable? I know Yamaha are sturdy as heck, but I'm thinking the better clutch and trans on the KTM MIGHT make it more suitable to a snow bike application?

 

[M5-]

Forgot to mention, make sure you install a temperature gauge so you can see where you are at.

M5

 

[teal_210]

Thanks guys ! Yes, I wasn't looking for more performance, just to correct the over-fuelling issue. Seems that's more an operating temp deal than tune, so that eliminates a variable when it comes to deciding which bike!

With that sorted, which would be the more reliable? I know Yamaha are sturdy as heck, but I'm thinking the better clutch and trans on the KTM MIGHT make it more suitable to a snow bike application?

I have a lot of time comparing a 2018 ktm 450sxf to a 2018 yz450f with ARO 120LE kits. The KTM wins hands down, it's not even close. I sold my yzf for a ktm 450.

No reliability issues with either bike.

 

[Jaynelson]

Haven't seen over-fueling issues on KTM's for the most part, I wouldn't bother with a re-map on an SX or XC.

EXC's usually like a re-map if you ditch the smog equipment/change exhaust.

 

[Ktm300]

Just curious what the KTM did so much better then the YZ ? I’m currently running an 18 YZ as a snowbike and it runs really strong and has been bulletproof, but I’m always looking for an improvement if there is one when I’m eventually going to get a new bike.

 

[barkbuster]

What he said.

I will concede there are small improvements available in the way the fuel can be delivered and when it is delivered but by in large the manufactures are not leaving a ton extra of performance on the table these days. Claims of 8hp yada yada through a remap I call BS. You can get improvements via fine tuning the fuel and timing which will help in setting up a better running bike. A bone stock bike is going to run pretty friggin well out of the box these days if you maintain your temps as stated. So is a remap necessary, no, is it something to consider, maybe down the road once you run out of things to spend money on. You really cant get a bunch more HP without making physical changes to the motor ie. cams and porting and high comp pistons, race fuel yada yada. More air, more fuel equals more power.

Buy a bike, get a Tstat, shrouds, engine blanket and my bet is all you will do is add gas and do oil changes.

M5

An exception to this would be the new KTM enduro bikes like my 2017 KTM 500EXCF. They require significant uncorking, and a fuel controller to realize their full hp. About an 11 hp gain with open silencer end cap, air intake mods, and proper fueling.

 

[G-Force]

I have a lot of time comparing a 2018 ktm 450sxf to a 2018 yz450f with ARO 120LE kits. The KTM wins hands down, it's not even close. I sold my yzf for a ktm 450.

No reliability issues with either bike.

Good to have some feedback. Ended up doing the deal on the KTM. Glad, cuz I have a few of them already, but would have liked to have supported the local Yamaha dealer with the bike purchase, but for some reason, the KTM was almost $600.00 cheaper? So the hydraulic clutch, better brakes etc, had to jump on it

 

[M5-]

An exception to this would be the new KTM enduro bikes like my 2017 KTM 500EXCF. They require significant uncorking, and a fuel controller to realize their full hp. About an 11 hp gain with open silencer end cap, air intake mods, and proper fueling.

I probably should have been more specific in my statement, I was only thinking of race bikes when I wrote that not their choked up cousin street legal street versions. I have an EXC as well, but really all that's happening there is getting the bike back up to meet its physical design specs by de-smogging and remapping it wont make more power than an equal sized race bike, maybe the same at best. The race bikes are already moving as much air as they can from the factory, enduro not so much so yah you're right, point taken.

M5

 

[teal_210]

Just curious what the KTM did so much better then the YZ ? I’m currently running an 18 YZ as a snowbike and it runs really strong and has been bulletproof, but I’m always looking for an improvement if there is one when I’m eventually going to get a new bike.

The ktm will just pull harder on the bottom end allowing the whole set-up to climb up on the snow. The YZ struggles in that area, if you look at the dyno charts the 18 yz lacks torque on the bottom end I think that's the issue but I'm not sure. Most 18 YZ guys have geared the kit down as a band-aide.

I also think there are some geometry problems with the ARO/YZ. Shortening the TSS 1/4" helps and I've seen people shim the ski so it sits a little flatter on the ground.

Then there is the weight different. Weight does matter.

 

[byeatts]

I probably should have been more specific in my statement, I was only thinking of race bikes when I wrote that not their choked up cousin street legal street versions. I have an EXC as well, but really all that's happening there is getting the bike back up to meet its physical design specs by de-smogging and remapping it wont make more power than an equal sized race bike, maybe the same at best. The race bikes are already moving as much air as they can from the factory, enduro not so much so yah you're right, point taken.

M5

All my newer KTM factory race bikes perform best with stock map.have installed PR2 and they all sucked fuel and lost power. Only the 500,s have shown gains with ecu change .

 

[CATSLEDMAN1]

all good

If you plan on a designated snow bike, yes engine temps in your area are critical.

temp gauge
engine covers
might as well start there, ditch the radiators and run heat exchangers....now it runs spot on in all conditions.

 

[G-Force]

Be piecing it together over the summer.
First to get a few hours on them all this summer, going to be hectic!

 

[G-Force]

Is there a particular thermostat or engine blanket setup that stands above others?

 

[GKR]

You are in Kelowna, go with C3 Powersports tsat ( and coolant heated bars!) and the RevvUp engine blankets are deluxe. Both manufacturers are right out your back door. Oh and in regards to the deep/mountain days, you might just find yourself leaving that sled in the shed more than you think......

 

[G-Force]

Thanks GKR! hahaha well the extra 100+ hp from the 850 is still awful alluring
What about range? Being the SX, it's the small tank... Wondering if a 3.2 us gal IMS tank be enough for a play day following the wife around on her sled?

 

[M5-]

Probably not, just strap a jerry on the back and call it good. I pack a 20L and have used it all plus my main tank many times. Bikes burn fuel just not as much as a sled.


M5