How important is oil injection?

[maniac mechanic]

Just wondering what you all thought about keeping the oil injection? I know some really good kits keep it and some really good kits eliminate it! what is the better way to go? If I was to design the ultimate Cat turbo system, would it matter if I kept or eliminated the stock oil injection? And since I am asking about the ultimate cat turbo system, what else would you like to see?
Please do no reply with the usual stuff such as pump gas at 14 lbs, or plug and play, or everything i will ever need included,I want a kit for under 3500, etc! those kind of statements are not realistic for someone who is gonna develope and stand behind a quality kit. But if you stayed within the realms of modern science and physics, what would you like to see? what would the average performance minded consumer want?


Would you like to deal with a supplier that says he has the next big thing and nothing to back it up with? Would you like to buy a kit from someone that is gonna sell you it part by part, Do you enjoy buying parts that you can try and make work together? Do you not expect the supplier to stand behind his product?
If you are on the same page as most people that I talk to, then You have answered no to all the above!
if you answered yes, then you love a challenge more than riding!

If you are the general public, then lend me a hand and give me real word advise as to what you would expect to see from a quality turbo system for your sled?

Give me some Quality ideas that I can pass on to the powers that be and see what they can come up with!

you might be amazed what a good bunch of ideas can develope!

 

[product tester]

Great post, It sounds like you are resurching building kits, If so that is great good luck it is a ton of work. Witch is good but not easy. I have found that everyone in this biss thinks they have the latest greatest, I have found that if I make my sled do what I want it to and then give it 100 % to make kits that way. I also found that most wiz bang things need a season of refinement on them before they are any better then what was all ready offered, That is just my personal experance with product I have bought and paid for It really upsets me when companys have there customers do the refinements for them.
oh ya when the boost is above 10#s and you are doubleing the fuel how does the oil pump know to double the oil?

 

[TheBreeze]

Are they guys not running injection drilling the case for premix?

 

[Vertical-Extreme]

Are they guys not running injection drilling the case for premix?

I did. there is a sticky I think on some of the different options (small oil bottle, greese zerk, drilled case, ect.) I put close to 1000 miles on mine this year with the bdx oil delete and the bottom of the case drilled (I think this is the same way Shain does it as well) running 40:1 pre mix

 

[snowmanx]

I understand tghe theory behind the "if you are using twice as much fuel as normal how does the oil injection know to give more".

I have a OVS kit with the oil injection in place and I like NOT having to mix oil. They say it's a lot harder to change reeds, with the oil injection stuff in place, but I don't think it is that hard. I pulled my air box off a few times and it only took me a few minutes......little wiggling and such and it pops right out. I don't think I would let either of those be a deciding factor on which kit is bette; except one could argue it's easier WITH oil injection.

I have not, nor have I heard of any failures related to lack of oil on turbos that have kept the oil injection in place. I have about 900 miles on my 1000 turbo without any oil issues.

 

[Tonysnoo]

I like the concept of oiling the turbo with my injector pump. However I didn't delete the case bottom oiler port. I sacrifice some of my turbo oil(about 2 oz per ride) to lube the pump drive from the injector pump. I gotta play with race gas containers so adding a little oil is not a big deal for me. What ever works that keeps the grin on yer face!

With that being said, I'm not sure that any of the motors need double the oil with double the fuel flow (except possibly, the exhaust side cylinder walls). When tearing down motors premixed at 100:1 or 16:1 there always seems to be plenty of oil laying around the bottom ends, bearings, and walls. We prolly waste more oil than we could even guess?????

No expert......just my gut and some observations........LOL

 

[hatchers]

Both "Oil Injection" and "Pre Mix" are working very well in respect to oil/fuel mix....sure the pre mix should be the logical option as more fuel (on boost) should need more oil and the stock "oil injection" only goes to full open and is a preset for stock fuel usage, but the stock oil injection is already too much, so leave it alone if you do stay with stock

What i see as a problem - these after market turbo oil pumps flow and pump way too much oil, this oil will pass across the seals and feed oil in a void that should be Air only.....i know the older boondocker kit i had would douche the charge tube with oil. And i have seen (with my own eyes) a turbo fail because to much oil pressure/flow was applied to the turbo bearing. The stock engine driven oil pump is near perfect for flow/pressure for the turbo.

And the "no maintenace" case oil tube is working great and on a ton of sleds, the remote oil bottle or grease gun fitting.

 

[dmj1]

oil pumps

Question :
does the turbo oil reservoir need to be higher than the stock pump@ the crank case? I don't think the stock oil pumps self prime ?

How are people blocking off the stock oil lines going to the crank case?
eg. cut tube and plug? or take injection nipple out and plug with a screw or bolt?

 

[Tonysnoo]

Question :
does the turbo oil reservoir need to be higher than the stock pump@ the crank case? I don't think the stock oil pumps self prime ?

How are people blocking off the stock oil lines going to the crank case?
eg. cut tube and plug? or take injection nipple out and plug with a screw or bolt?

When I was building my turbo, I worried about this a lot. I set up a test on the bench and found the stock oil pump(driven by drill) would suck the oil about 6-8". I didn't test it any lower. I purposely pulled the suction to get air bubbles in the lines and it still would draw oil when the suction was returned to the oil. I felt really good about using the injection pump after that.

I also use an old school dashboard mounted fuel primer tapped right into the pump bleed bolt and my homemade pump outlet manifold to bleed/prime the whole system. This way I can change oil or service hoses or whatever and it only takes about a minute to pull oil to the pump around and all the way to the turbo. Note: it won't pull oil through the pump, just around it.

On my motor there was only one line going to the bottom of the crank case. Tests showed me that there is minimal oil pumped to this part of crankcase so I left it in place and sacrifice turbo oil to oil it. I add 2-4 oz of new oil per weekend. I have used various block off and lube methods(zerks, little tanks, etc) for years with various results. This seems to be a win win deal for me.

The oil ports in the boots can be plugged in a number of ways. I like to drill and tap them and locktight a screw in them.

Good luck....hope this helps!

 

[dmj1]

thanks

thanks for the info .
this helped me decide to use the pump for my turbo and then mix the fuel .
I am using this on a t900 polaris I built and the oil res. is the same height as the oil pump. Did you use 2 stroke oil in your turbo? I am using 0-40w synthetic four stroke oil.

 

[Tonysnoo]

thanks for the info .
this helped me decide to use the pump for my turbo and then mix the fuel .
I am using this on a t900 polaris I built and the oil res. is the same height as the oil pump. Did you use 2 stroke oil in your turbo? I am using 0-40w synthetic four stroke oil.

I am using 0-20 synthetic. I only tested my Cat system. The only injection port to the motor supplies oil to the water pump drive/injection pump gear and shaft bushings, so it requires very little oil, and I didn't worry about using non 2 stroke oil in this cavity.

Didn't think about a Poo system when I responded. Doesn't the Poo motor have an oiler on an outer crank bearing? If so, that could be a problem. The pump might need to send a lot of oil toward it. Not sure.......1) if you want to sacrifice that much turbo oil, or.........2) if a lot of synthetic turbo oil would play nice inside the motor. Just when ya think ya got it figured, someone changes the rules.........LOL

 

[dmj1]

I am using 0-20 synthetic. I only tested my Cat system. The only injection port to the motor supplies oil to the water pump drive/injection pump gear and shaft bushings, so it requires very little oil, and I didn't worry about using non 2 stroke oil in this cavity.

Didn't think about a Poo system when I responded. Doesn't the Poo motor have an oiler on an outer crank bearing? If so, that could be a problem. The pump might need to send a lot of oil toward it. Not sure.......1) if you want to sacrifice that much turbo oil, or.........2) if a lot of synthetic turbo oil would play nice inside the motor. Just when ya think ya got it figured, someone changes the rules.........LOL

Ya the center shaft is sealed in the crank case . the oil to it comes from a gravity feed from the oil res. I was just going to put a small bottle on the line and check the level every so often. They already do this on the 440 racer.
if it was na aspirated I would not loose the stock oil injection . But under boost I really think it gets pushed everywhere.