Hey Look we are winning, or is it losing?

[redrockwr]

I have been following this, a bit this year and I am amazed at how many snowmobilers have been caught or killed in avalanches. This is very concerning and I am trying to figure out why.
Is it -
1. Better Machines
2. Pushing the limits of what we can do
3. Seeing the line that we should not be looking for
4. Lack of education
5. We just don't care
6. We cant afford safety gear
7. Natural occurrences
8. Maybe not anymore then other activities just more snowmobilers out in the backcountry

Now, I know every situation is different, and I was not involved with any of these accidents so I am looking from the outside in, but at some point this lack of understanding is going to catch up with each one of us. I use to hang out with a lot of backcountry skiers and for the most part they seemed to have it all driven into their heads about backcountry safety. (Not that skiers do not see their share of accidents) but it seems like fewer occurrences then with people who ride snowmobiles.

I know I will probably get beat on here for this but oh well, it is good to open the dialogue.

http://www.avalanche.org/accidents.php

 

[Goinboardin]

Couple thoughts

Part of it has to do with the vast amount of terrain we cover on sleds, whereas on skis or any other human powered endeavor you just don't get on that many slopes. Sledding I might hit 20 hills (or far more) that have the potential to slide in a day. When I go out splitboarding I might expose myself to 5 if I'm really feeling strong that day.

Related to the above, as I ascend a slope on my split, I'm moving slowly, probing the snow with trekking poles, digging small hand pits and getting a decent idea of what the snow pack is doing. On a sled we move so fast, change aspects so frequently, that rarely do we get a chance to intimately investigate the snow pack without taking a break to dig a pit, however informal. A trench is a good place to start checking the layers. On sleds I've felt the snowpack collapse twice, each time I was off my sled and someone rode by me. On my splitboard I've felt the snowpack collapse probably 20? times. I don't think it very easy to notice that red flag when sledding, whereas on skis you feel & hear the whoomphing, and you know its time to find another route or different aspect.

And that doesn't even probe the human aspect of it, which I'm sure comes into play big time.

That's all I've got for now. Let's keep it going

 

[elkhunt]

Some are just stupid!

last week there were sled tracks on a side hill within 20 yards of a slide that came through the trees the week before. You couldn't miss seeing the busted timber and debris if you tried! Do you need training to see that danger?


So I vote for some are just stupid and think because they have avy gear they are safe!

 

[Flatlander78]

I have been following this, a bit this year and I am amazed at how many snowmobilers have been caught or killed in avalanches. This is very concerning and I am trying to figure out why.
Is it -
1. Better Machines
2. Pushing the limits of what we can do
3. Seeing the line that we should not be looking for
4. Lack of education
5. We just don't care
6. We cant afford safety gear
7. Natural occurrences
8. Maybe not anymore then other activities just more snowmobilers out in the backcountry

Now, I know every situation is different, and I was not involved with any of these accidents so I am looking from the outside in, but at some point this lack of understanding is going to catch up with each one of us. I use to hang out with a lot of backcountry skiers and for the most part they seemed to have it all driven into their heads about backcountry safety. (Not that skiers do not see their share of accidents) but it seems like fewer occurrences then with people who ride snowmobiles.

I know I will probably get beat on here for this but oh well, it is good to open the dialogue.

http://www.avalanche.org/accidents.php

Actually I think its all the above. It looks like there are fewer snowmobile incidents now. Based on my observations, I would say there are more snowmobiliers in the backcountry than skiers at least where I am and given the amount of country we cover and I'll call it the weight disadvantage, its surprising the numbers aren't much higher than skiers. Things happen so much quicker on a snowmobile so people have less time to analyze and think about whats occuring because before you know it your onto the next slope.

 

[The Fourth Wolf]

Lack of education.

As the sport and the capabilities of machines evolve, so must our notions of what constitutes education. Knowledge alters our decision making. Hopefully, enabling us to make smarter choices like not playing on a loaded south facing slope, late in the afternoon, the day after a storm--which is exactly how/when/where most of our fatalities occur.

We must also accept that ultimately, what we do carries risk and all the education, equipment and good judgement in the world only lessen that risk. The only way to reduce the risk to zero is to stay home and clearly, we're not willing to do that.

We have to get ourselves, as individuals, to that point where, all pumped up on adrenaline on a glorious blue-bird day, we can look at a bowl or a slope and say "Not today", no matter how bad we want to gamble.

 

[TIM]

backcountry skiers need skill to get to an avy slope. and backcountry snowmobiler just needs money. just because you have the balls, doesn't mean you have the brains.

 

[BigT]

Nice discussion all.
I agree with Wolf--we have to be able to control our desire to hit the steep and deep when the conditions are not favorable.
One of the classes I've had talked about the "weekend" being a large factor in avy deaths. I get it- I personally have a lot of money wrapped up in my sport and I live a ways from the hills. When I decide to ride for a day, I drive 3-4 hours each way and it is a time and money commitment. Therefore, when I get to the hill--I'm gonna ride. That said, i have to be willing to alter my routes in conjunction with the avy reports and weather conditions.
I do think we are approaching a point where some type of avy training needs to be required to ride in the mountains. Its required it operate a motorboat, its required for hunting, its required to get a motorcycle endorsement, why not for a snowmobile.
There likely is not any one answer as to how to keep our avy deaths at a minimum but I think education is a start and requiring it should be mandatory.

BigT

 

[Team Pigeon]

I've also followed this trend if you can call it that. I have a bit of a different take on it:

-Social- facebook twitter, look at me everyone, take a selfie, tell the world you're awesome.

-Entitlement- 60k in the truck, 30k in sleds, 10k in gear & avy courses, long weekend, hotels booked, only days off to ride, permission granted from the wife, holidays booked from work and we've planned this trip out and we checked the bulletin but we're already on the highway pedal to the metal 4 hours to go and the avy hazard is 'considerable' (middle of the line for ratings up here in canada), BUT we're gonnna ride regardless. There's an expectation for a return on your investment, it's human nature and a lot of people call it sledding.

I used to be that guy until I moved 7hours away from the city and bought a home where I ride from. Not saying everyone needs to (or can) move away and become a local to an area. But my saying became: 'This will be here tomorrow' when I encountered unfavorable conditions and I've told it to many of my friends that have made the drive out to visit. I'm also not saying that all weekend warriors are loose cannons. I have a lot of friends that ride safely living in the big city. But them guys concentrate in riding specific areas- which heightens their situational awareness to help tracks changes and changes that occur throughout the winter. These are key to your mental diary of whats happening with the terrain and snow.

I also don't see the backcountry changing to restricted use. The boat license thing has probably come about from the sheer amount of annual drowning deaths- Canada's got about 400 a year. As for avalanche deaths, there's been about 400 avalanche deaths in the past 35 years. Granted there's probably a lot more boaters, it would be nice to see a per capita statistic.

 

[The Fourth Wolf]

Pigeon raises an excellent point:

Busy lives and tight schedules leave less time to do what we love and create a false sense of urgency for exactly the reasons he cites. Big investments in machines, gear, and vacation or weekend time coupled with an expectation to get a return of fun on those precious dollars and hours, and you have a recipe for an increased willingness to gamble.

I think another factor is our tendency to fixate on the snow 20-30 feet in front of the skis--i.e. channelized attention. Sure we're glancing ahead, planning the next phase of our ever evolving line but we're usually looking for obstacles 2-3 seconds away not hazards hundreds of yards out.

Hell, I did that today. We were riding an area where most of the exposed slopes were set up "hero" snow with protected areas down in the trees and in small valleys holding soft snow--anything from sugar to powder. So, I'm slaloming up this little powdery gully, pop out, maneuver through some rocks and just commit to a climb through a broad but steep gully without even thinking. I got sunshine over my shoulder and firm snow under my skis, and the motor's singing and the track is hooking up, and I'm a happy boy!

It wasn't until I reached the saddle that I had the realization that I had just made a long pull through a terrain trap flanked by wind-loaded slopes. In the moment (when it matters most) I let the "WAHOO!" part of my brain completely override the danger evaluator part. The descent included a long traverse to a gentle finger ridge and a few minutes of self-scolding.

I had time to pause and more carefully assess the slope but as I crested that gully I had momentum and a clean line and I just went for it. Let me say again, I never gave my decision a second thought. My focus was totally on "Can I?" rather than "Should I".

I admit it: I got lucky. The slope didn't budge but there were several red flags waving that were simply not acknowledged. Things I know. Things I have preached to others about. Things that say: Stop & Study...then decide.

I'm riding tomorrow in the same area. I WILL be more cautious.

 

[OuraySledder]

backcountry skiers need skill to get to an avy slope. and backcountry snowmobiler just needs money. just because you have the balls, doesn't mean you have the brains.

How much skill is involved with walking? I mean, I walk everyday, I walk all over, climb stairs and everything, been pretty good at it, even an expert maybe. Hiking up a mountain does jot require ANY skill whatsoever.

Backcountry snowmobiler needs some skills to ride that machine. Last I checked, horsing a 500 lb machine through deep snow to climb a hill took a fair amount of skill and practice. I rode with a new guy yesterday, tell him it only takes money... He learned a lot being around good riders but there was no way he was accessing the country the experienced (skilled) riders can.

 

[Team Pigeon]

Pigeon raises an excellent point:
...We were riding an area...

Where were your buddies in all this? Not trying to scold you, it's just I question I try ask myself before I make a decision like this.

If the firemen don't know where the fire is, they're just gonna keep driving around. Only there's no smoke in the air to find ya. You also have to account for where your riding partners are at all times as they are your last line of defense. And vice versa, you're there for them. This fact has slowed me down over the years, I circle around more often.

Another tip is to discuss your day's plans at the trail head or even the night before. And then re-discuss it when you get out there. How's everyone feeling? Any issues? Concerns? You might find that your plan B also has to come out on the table for consideration a little more often. There's always a safer way to pull the big stuff, but you all need to be on the same page.