Help Stop Wolves

[mtnpull]

Hey Utah peeps, please take a couple minutes and go to this web page and click on the take action now tab and send a quick email to many of our decision makers in washington. This will help protect our big game herds and protect livestock.

http://www.capwiz.com/biggameforever/home/

 

[DragonFreak]

DONE

 

[highline]

Done! Thanks Mtnpull...saw four wolves up by Hoyt Peak while deer hunting two years ago. Between the cats and now the wolves up there, the big game have their work cut out for them.

 

[RMKED]

Done!

 

[SledsWest]

OK, I'm gonna stir the pot a little. First off, a little background. I am a big game, small game hunter and I'm about the furthest thing from a tree-hugger you can find (I just quit my job with an oil & gas company to go to work for a coal mine). Sooo, it seems to me that ranchers and sportsman lobbyists are using scare-tactics and embellished facts to sell their desire and disdain for wolves. We know this stuff goes on, we see it in the anti-snowmobiling lobbyists when they preach about how our sleds are destroying the forests and harassing the wildlife. Its all scare tactics. Wolves are part of the ecosystem. I realize they are known to kill livestock and big game just for the thrill of it, but thats part of the hazard of living in the west. I also agree that the wolf packs need to be regulated, just like all the other wildlife groups are so as to maintain a balance. I enjoy pheasant hunting, but that doesn't mean that I'm gonna lobby against raccoons, skunks and hawks because they all target and kill the pheasants that I want to shoot. Its just the way the ecosystem works. Ya, we reintroduced the wolves to Yellowstone and allowed them to spread throughout the northern rockies, but we were also responsible for their annihilation in the same area to begin with.

OK, bring the flame.....

 

[harrysmith500]

OK, bring the flame.....:

OK, I'll entertain you.

Can wolves be managed as well as a deer or elk herd?

I see them being more like Coyotes and Foxes, nearly impossible to accurately track the herd numbers ect..

 

[SledsWest]

I can't accurately answer that question. I'm not sure what goes into managing wolves, foxes or coyotes (or deer, elk, moose, etc). All I can do is speculate....which is what causes this whole scare tactic, over embellished, political arguement in the first place. Are there any wildlife mgmt guys out there that could chime in with an unbiased opinion?? Or biased, I'm sure it would still be educational to hear a game mgmt perspective.

 

[highline]

OK, I'm gonna stir the pot a little. First off, a little background. I am a big game, small game hunter and I'm about the furthest thing from a tree-hugger you can find (I just quit my job with an oil & gas company to go to work for a coal mine). Sooo, it seems to me that ranchers and sportsman lobbyists are using scare-tactics and embellished facts to sell their desire and disdain for wolves. We know this stuff goes on, we see it in the anti-snowmobiling lobbyists when they preach about how our sleds are destroying the forests and harassing the wildlife. Its all scare tactics. Wolves are part of the ecosystem. I realize they are known to kill livestock and big game just for the thrill of it, but thats part of the hazard of living in the west. I also agree that the wolf packs need to be regulated, just like all the other wildlife groups are so as to maintain a balance. I enjoy pheasant hunting, but that doesn't mean that I'm gonna lobby against raccoons, skunks and hawks because they all target and kill the pheasants that I want to shoot. Its just the way the ecosystem works. Ya, we reintroduced the wolves to Yellowstone and allowed them to spread throughout the northern rockies, but we were also responsible for their annihilation in the same area to begin with.

OK, bring the flame.....

I can understand your point, but for me, this isn't the old west anymore. Habitat is shrinking and wildlife needs managing more than ever. Deer and Elk herds were really suffering for a lot of years. It was sportsmen that made the reintroduction of the wolf possible by bringing back deer and elk herds that are now feeding wolves. I don't want to see the wolf disappear, I just want the state to be able to manage it's wildlife.

 

[mtnpull]

Quads,

The problem isn't that there are wolves, it's that they are protected and uncontrolled or unmanaged. Areas of Wyoming and Idaho that had elk heards near 20,000 in 1994 now only have 4000-6000! The Shiras moose near jackson hole once had over 1200 moose and is now down to around 150. This bill is an effort to turn management back over to the states and not allow the anti's to use it and jam it up in court. Anti hunting groups are simply using the wolf to get rid of hunting. No game, no hunting. If you don't agree don't send out the email. But first learn the facts and what we are actually fighting for. It is for turning the control back over to the states for management and not allowing it to get stalled in court battles while the wolves destroy big game herds across the west.

 

[SledsWest]

Quads,

The problem isn't that there are wolves, it's that they are protected and uncontrolled or unmanaged. Areas of Wyoming and Idaho that had elk heards near 20,000 in 1994 now only have 4000-6000! The Shiras moose near jackson hole once had over 1200 moose and is now down to around 150. This bill is an effort to turn management back over to the states and not allow the anti's to use it and jam it up in court. Anti hunting groups are simply using the wolf to get rid of hunting. No game, no hunting. If you don't agree don't send out the email. But first learn the facts and what we are actually fighting for. It is for turning the control back over to the states for management and not allowing it to get stalled in court battles while the wolves destroy big game herds across the west.

I see your point and agree that there needs to be management. However, I question the numbers and the intrinsic decline due to the wolf. I agree that anti's are using the wolf to stave off hunting, but do we really see the evidence (real evidence like tons and tons of dead, eaten, wolf attacked big game carcasses) that the wolves are responsible for the declining numbers (if the numbers are real). There are other factors as well which I think have a larger impact on the big game herds than wolves. Things like urban sprawl, drought, tough winters, more hunters, easier access to once impossible-to-reach terrain, mis-management of the game herds (more hunters = more money for the DOW and the state, so lets sell more tags than we have big game), etc. Its just an easy argument to pin the culpability on the wolves because hunting and ranching rule the mtn west and the reintroduction of the wolf is in direct competition to the powers that be out here.

 

[mtnpull]

Again, you need to study it up. The decline in numbers of elk coordinate directly with wolf introduction and increase in wolf numbers. As wolf populations increase, herds decrease. These are in areas that don't have the "urban crawl" that you see along the wasatch. Not to mention elk fair better than deer in harsh weather and limited winter range yet elk are the most drastically hurt by the wolf. There is also plenty of evidence of elk destruction from wolves if you just look a little. Lastly states are not going to issue so many tags as to wipe out a herd for the sake of a few bucks. If there are no elk to hunt who will pay to hunt them? Why would they sell so many tags so as to wipe out future revenue. Not going to happen. Once again study up on the subject.

 

[Ricks 32]

You guys better get a bead on this while you still can. Utah is at the top of the list for quality Elk and Deer populations and habitats. I'm an Idahoan and we are getting our butts kicked by the wolves. I'm not a fanatical wolf hater, but I spend a lot of time in the hills all year long and they are a HUGE problem.

The problem we see today is the wolves that were reintroduced to the area were not the native timberwolves that once inhabited the lower Rocky Mountains. The Canadian Grey Wolf was reintroduced and it's a much larger, more aggressive wolf which has larger litters as well. They also have larger territories than timberwolves. I have personally seen the destruction of these wolves and yes they do sport kill. I've seen a dead cow elk and her calf fetus pulled out of her belly and left on the ground. I've seen elk populations in the Eastern and Central part of the State go from record numbers to very few. (The Sawtooth Range alone saw Elk herd numbers from 13k to 14k in the early 2000's and now we are at 2000).

Elk are the #1 target of the wolves, but the elk are not the only victims. We are seeing a huge decline in our Black Bear population. And it's the adult bears that are declining. The bigger bears will turn and fight vs climb a tree and the wolves will seriously skin them alive. One-on-one with a wolf is no problem for a bear, but 6-8 wolves to 1 bear is a huge disadvantage. We had an Idaho Fish and Game official come to our camp this fall to ask if we'd seen any bear sign. He showed us pictures of dead black bears who had the skin torn off their bodies from the hind legs to the mid part of the back.

Idaho's wolf population is so thick that there are wolf packs down in the desert areas and bordering towns. I've seen them on the sand at St. Anthony sand dunes and we have a dairy outside of Rexburg that has to run lighting all night and hired hands to circle the feed-lot each night on 4-wheelers to keep the wolves from getting into the calves.

If you don't think these things are big, check the Idaho Reg's and look at the biggest wolf killed in 2009. A 227lb dog that was 7 feet long. I don't know who's brilliant idea it was to reintroduce the wolf, but I think the old timers before us were smarter than what we give them credit for for getting rid of the wolves. However, these wolves are here to stay. There is no way of getting rid of them now. Central Idaho is so remote and steep that there is no chance in eliminating the wolfs in there. And for those who love to get into the backcountry, you better take protection! There are area's that my dad and scout leaders took me too when I was younger that we can't even get youth permits today b/c of the danger from wolves.

Please educate yourselves on the lesson's that Idaho has come to learn the hard way. Wolves are a problem. Just ask the lady in Sun Valley who had to sleep in a tree and watch her dog's get ripped to shreds as they were enjoying a nice hike in the Sawtooth's. She was a wolf activist before. After her experience she starting paying attention to what was happening all over the state and decided that we had a problem on our hands. I could go on and on guys, but the reality is Utah can get this fixed. Utahan's speak up and get things fixed and done right. I've come to love Wyomings solution to the wolf which is treat them like a predator and shoot them til there gone. But that won't happen. I do hope the wolves migrate south into Utah for the sole purpose of getting your attention. Because Utah will not tolerate the mass destruction that will come once the wolves make your state there home.

Good luck Utah. Please step up and voice your concern. Montana, Wyoming and ESPECIALLY IDAHO is counting on you.

And if you are a wolf lover and take offense to my post. Be honest with yourself and take a week long camping trip into the mountains in Salmon Idaho. Take a camera. Record what you see. Record what you hear at night. Salmon has been know for it's huge elk population and it's rugged landscape. I'm sad to say that the grass on the rugged landscape is getting too tall these days. Fewer and fewer elk are around anymore. And I highly recommend you take a gun. Preferably an automatic.

 

[SledsWest]

Again, you need to study it up. The decline in numbers of elk coordinate directly with wolf introduction and increase in wolf numbers. As wolf populations increase, herds decrease. These are in areas that don't have the "urban crawl" that you see along the wasatch. Not to mention elk fair better than deer in harsh weather and limited winter range yet elk are the most drastically hurt by the wolf. There is also plenty of evidence of elk destruction from wolves if you just look a little. Lastly states are not going to issue so many tags as to wipe out a herd for the sake of a few bucks. If there are no elk to hunt who will pay to hunt them? Why would they sell so many tags so as to wipe out future revenue. Not going to happen. Once again study up on the subject.

Are there any hard numbers to back this up? Can anybody supply the harvest numbers and the permits sold each year in ID, WY, UT, MT? I'm sure they're on the DOW websites. I'd check but I'm already late for work. If these numbers that are being thrown around are true, and you believe the DOW doesn't give out more permits than they should, then we should see a drastic decline in elk and deer permits given out. There are some pretty lofty numbers being tossed around in this thread and with such huge declines in game herds, this should also be seen in harvest data and permits sold data.

 

[mtnpull]

Are there any hard numbers to back this up? Can anybody supply the harvest numbers and the permits sold each year in ID, WY, UT, MT? I'm sure they're on the DOW websites. I'd check but I'm already late for work. If these numbers that are being thrown around are true, and you believe the DOW doesn't give out more permits than they should, then we should see a drastic decline in elk and deer permits given out. There are some pretty lofty numbers being tossed around in this thread and with such huge declines in game herds, this should also be seen in harvest data and permits sold data.

Of course it is, but I'm done doing your research. Go to the division(s) sites and look for yourself.

 

[sledhead ut]

I remember the Ive's boy being eaten by a Bear in AF Canyon and the family trying to sue the state. Can only imagine the reaction when a pack of Wolves eats a whole family. Well maybe not eat. Just rip them to shreds and leave them for the coyotes.

Sent my letter off today. Thanks Adam

 

[SledsWest]

Of course it is, but I'm done doing your research. Go to the division(s) sites and look for yourself.

Whoah there man. Im just trying to get a conversation going and get people thinking. No need to get bent out of shape. It was just a question that i thought of this morning in the shower but didnt have time to look up. Sheesh

 

[goforbroke]

Are there any hard numbers to back this up? Can anybody supply the harvest numbers and the permits sold each year in ID, WY, UT, MT? I'm sure they're on the DOW websites. I'd check but I'm already late for work. If these numbers that are being thrown around are true, and you believe the DOW doesn't give out more permits than they should, then we should see a drastic decline in elk and deer permits given out. There are some pretty lofty numbers being tossed around in this thread and with such huge declines in game herds, this should also be seen in harvest data and permits sold data.

elk migration hunt of elk coming out of montana, near gardner, used to give over 2000 tags steadily went down and so few elk there are 0 tags, no hunt now! Idaho has an allotment for out of state hunters. Any unit with wolves (lolo, salmon etc) doesn't even sell out were 10 years ago many would sell out within 30 minutes. Article in Eastmans magazine and Idaho sold less than half of the nonresident tags it used to. cost the economy millions. There is a letter from the govorner of Idaho asking fish and game to turn a blind eye to anyone shooting wolves as they can't get authority to manage. If the governor asks that, it is a problem.

 

[goforbroke]

I remember the Ive's boy being eaten by a Bear in AF Canyon and the family trying to sue the state. Can only imagine the reaction when a pack of Wolves eats a whole family. Well maybe not eat. Just rip them to shreds and leave them for the coyotes.

Sent my letter off today. Thanks Adam

Tried - they settled out of court for $$$$.

 

[mtnpull]

Whoah there man. Im just trying to get a conversation going and get people thinking. No need to get bent out of shape. It was just a question that i thought of this morning in the shower but didnt have time to look up. Sheesh

Nobody's getting bent out of shape, I'm just not going to do your homework for you. I have given enough info. If you don't agree, don't sign the petition. If you want to learn more then break out the laptop and dig up the info.

This is a real problem that has our big game populations under fire. If we don't take action our kids will not have anything to hunt or look at etc, etc. Personally I'm not going to sit around and let our herds get decimated.

 

[girlpowder]

This is a real problem that has our big game populations under fire. If we don't take action our kids will not have anything to hunt or look at etc, etc. Personally I'm not going to sit around and let our herds get decimated.

Personally I worry about all the hiking we do. We tend to hike a lot of back country off the trail terrain. This is very worrisome for the future.