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Gas in your oil? EFI and carb tuning discussion

M

mtn-doo

Well-known member
This is a great topic and needs a permanent place for everyone to reference. The Technology and success will be constantly evolving. There are a lot of people out there that will be a great resource. Dobeck Performance, Athena Get VT-1 Configurator, Bazzaz, Power Commander, and others. American Performance Technology - APT and the smart carb.

ECU tuning and Carb jetting--- let's share what we're doing, our experience, the good and the bad, trials and errors! :gossip:
 
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Bazzaz has an EFI tuner that I used and liked very well. It records your stock AFR's and saves them. You then select your target AFR. 12.8 to 13.0. I found a little richer ran much better. The 12.5 - 12.8 range. Next push the "apply" button. Your fuel map is then changed to run at that new setting. You're done. no programming, no gauges mounted on the bars, no fiddling with it. It run's at that setting day in, day out. As temp and altitude change, it does not. It will maintain the same fuel delivery and never change. If you set it on a good average day, it is simple and works very well. It is NOT live and manipulating your fuel delivery in real time changes. It is a "corrected" fuel map and runs like your stock bike with no accessories attached. Just a corrected fuel map. Some people might love it, others may prefer a "live" system. The Bazzaz was the first of it's kind I tested on a snow bike three years ago. On it's maiden voyage outside Jackson, Wy demoing for Rexburg Motorsports, it walked away from stock bikes. Very impressive! It improved the fuel in the oil, but did not eliminate it. That was the same time I researched and tried many different Thermostats thinking raising engine temps would be helpful. I found the KTM 70C and used a heat gun and kitchen thermometer, "ha" and tested it all year. The thermostat and Bazzaz combination was the first combination tested and worked very well. That was a long time ago and a lot has been done sense then. I would always keep the Bazzaz and 70C Thermostat as a good, simple option.
 
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Does the Bazzaz use a wideband o2 sensor in the pipe? If so it would be a good option for setting up a turbo system.

M5

Yes it does. It would be a good one for boost. It is a "fixed" fuel map. You can set it anywhere you want it,...... there it stays.
 
The bazazz without some sort of boost reference would not work properly at all. The only way you can run a turbo vehichle with no boost reference is with a live auto tune anid ability to make lots of change fast. The unit would not have any way to know that anything has changed and with how it filters data would work very poorly with a boost curve thrown into the fuel mix.


I will start with this and elaborate more when I have a chance to sit down and explain the differences.

The bazzaz and pcv are "auto mapping" the dobeck perofrmance AFR plus aka gen 4 is a true auto tune unit. I will go into more detail on how these similar names have a WAY dfferent approach and affect on your bikes state of tune.
 
Yes, for sure. Boost needs signal. When we build turbo motors, everything depends on signal. You can have a map matched to boost signal on an "average" and work very well without live, play catch up controllers. That is just playing "catch up" to what just got done happening. The controllers that are needed for boost are programmed to be "on time", not a step behind. That doesn't work. For everyone's basic fuel tuning needs. A basic "fuel map" tuner to adjust for temp and altitude works great for a basic EFI bike. Not a turbo build.
 
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Here's a Bazzaz link for people shopping around. There are several out there to read about and experiment with. The Bazzaz units are very proven in the race world. A world wide company with many pro AMA teams running it. Several world titles and awards. It is an easy install and works very well.

http://www.bazzaz.net/

The other major AMA player for 450 race motors is the Athena Get VT-1 Configurator. It's kinda pricey but a fully programably system. Would be a fun one to try? If someone does, please give us a report. Here's a link,

http://www.athenaparts.com/eng/blog

Many AMA pro motocross teams are using this one, and winning! Should be a top shelf programmer.
 
My concern with the Bazzaz on a snowbike application is this.

As i have seen and tested firsthand, the air temp controls the vast majority of the mapping. If you go out, and "map" the bike when its 32 degrees out and it sets up its table on what percent fuel changes to make in its TPS vs RPM map. now yougo home and dump the info in it just uses its generated map. So now say you go out and its a nice crisp 0* day, the factory fuel map is going to be a LOT farther off and need a different set of fuel alteration values in its table. so you either constantly have to remap it or accept that is closer then stock, but not ideal all the time. It is more of an auto "suggest" mapper then anything. again, it is going to get you closer, but in the snowbike world, live auto tune is a step ahead.

Now just to throw a wrench how it would operate even more, filter icing, plugging etc. that is drastically change the bikes mapping. The fueling needs as the day goes on can change drastically based on temp, filter etc, and running the bazzaz you are going to be running the same map, all day. unless you bring your laptop and retune as your out riding.

And last but not least, you have no gauge or way to verify how the bike is actually running, there may be slight changes in feel or milage, maybe even variations in the gas in the oil, but all of those things have so many variables its hard to say if its the controller handling it.

The other big ding is, the basic unit is right around $300 depending on vendor, and the Z-afm upgrade is another $300. and you still have no gauge or way to confirm what your really getting for an end result, just a lighter wallet, and an assumption your running better.


want true, "auto tune", adjust on the fly, with no laptop, and an AFR gauge? at almost half the price?

afrplus.com
... all applications aren't listed but give the DP crew a call, they have almost any bike you could convert ready to rock and roll.
 
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Working improving seal, but figured out ways to prevent major water infiltration. nothing that affects running, just hard to read due to fogging issues were observed.

THey are also working on setting up a "double stack" gen 3.5 controller, its all the features of the gen 4 in a standard style case just double the thickness, displays AFR, just not on a gauge, on a normal gen 3.5 8 LED display, so you do loose a little resolution on the display, but you retain all the features and function for fueling, and there is no worry on water related issues. all waterproofed and cased up solid.
 
That would be great. Even a totally sealed unit with a pig tail out the bottom would be great. When they freeze solid the needle gets froze in one spot and you can't read it, or make adjustments anymore, really sucks.
 
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I ran my kx 450 with the dobeck controler last year and it worked great. At the start of the season I was running it stock and on one trip when it was 15 out it dumped fuel into the engine with it finding its way into the oil. I removed 3-4 more ounces gas diluted oil than I installed. After installing the gen 4 the bike never gained oil between changes. The only problem I had was in starting the bike as the controller drew power from the injection circuit that seemed to make starting harder. After nick reprogrammed my unit to not take power to warm the 02 sensor untill after the bike was running I was back to starting on the first or second kick after the bike was warmed up. As far as the gauge getting iced up I am putting a tack bag over it this year but didn't have that much trouble last year because my bike gets a warm shop every night.
 
This is a great topic and needs a permanent place for everyone to reference. The Technology and success will be constantly evolving. There are a lot of people out there that will be a great resource. Dobeck Performance, Athena Get VT-1 Configurator, Bazzaz, Power Commander, and others. American Performance Technology - APT and the smart carb.

ECU tuning and Carb jetting--- let's share what we're doing, our experience, the good and the bad, trials and errors! :gossip:
Greetings Snowbikers!! I can say I'm excited to tear off my dirt wheels this week and strap on the ST and hit some early season riding days! I hope everyone is too....or already has -- lucky ducks.
To start with - and peering back into the carbureted days - yes, Dynojet has a full line of jet kits to fine tune your 2 or 4 stroke machine albeit not as neat as the APT (cool stuff there) and not our main focus in current days.
But lets talk Fuel Injection. Many users are choosing an FI bike for the snow kits for consistency and ease of use. For tuning on these Dirtbikes, Dynojet has devoted countless hours to development around these machines as evidenced by our product base.
We offer a fuel + ignition controller for all Yamaha and Honda bikes, and a Fuel only controller for all KTM and Suzuki bikes.
All of these controllers are compatible with our Autotune Devices - if you so wish to monitor or tune to your set AFR value, but is not required.

As an added bonus -- and most noteworthy since this is "keep fuel out of your oil" thread, is the availability for an Analog input in the PCV. This quickly gives you full control over trimming the fueling based on a sensors output - just like how an ECU would do. All OEM's (whether Auto or powersports) are using series of sensors (IAT/MAP/ET/etc.) to monitor the engine operating conditions to calculate an output pulse to deliver to the injectors/spark plugs. Cold Engine temp = add fuel, High Elevation = subtract fuel, and countless others. Many (including myself) have seen the piles of fuel that drain into the oil from the bike Over-compensating (some are worse than others) and delivering too much fuel in the cold/high temperatures/elevations of SnowBike land.
Enter Power Commander V -- If your ECU wants to add excessive amounts fuel below 50* Intake Air Temp, or 120* Water Temp, or above 7000' Elevation, or any signal -- any of these analog signals can be read into the PCV and adjusted upon. So let's use the air temp over fueling condition - we pipe this signal into the PCV, and to mitigate the over delivery of fuel below i.e. 50*, we pull out 2% fuel. Then under 40*, we pull 5% fuel, under 30* pull 10% fuel (or any combination)-- this is all configurable to meet your needs to subtract any amount at any temperature/pressure.
Easy, Right??? And a simple method to solve the over-fueling problem all plug and play.

And to clear up some misconceptions, the Autotune function is a tried-and-true auto map/auto tune device.
Simply put and how all Closed looping systems operate -- an O2 sensor reads the ratio of air:fuel exiting the combustion chamber. If the signal at the given operating condition is not within a spec'd parameter set by the ECU (or PCV in this case), the device trims the fuel up or down to meet the specification.
Added feature of the PCV -- once this operating condition has been run through, the PCV remembers the trim that it had to come up with to meet your Target AFR from the time before, and already has the fuel delivery on par with what you desire and does not need to re-calc and re-trim to get there. Closed loop ECU guru's might know this as "long-term trims" that the ECU may utilize as your engine changes due to clogged injectors, clogged air intake, or other operating factors.

If anyone has any further questions, feel free to ask me or contact us directly! I'm always happy to help out a fellow powersports enthusiast.

~T.J.
 
I may be interested in trying one on a new SXF450. ??? I have a read only Koso AFR mounted now to see what the baseline is. How good? how bad? The SXF is the best stock performing I have personally seen. AFR's and hardly any gas in the oil. I want to log some stock base lines first.
 
I know in the supermoto world which is wear I normally operate Dynojets PCV and auto tune is what everybody (on all major brands) runs on there fueli bikes. I didnt know about the analog input though. That seems like it would be handy for the snow.
 
mtn-doo,
One of my colleagues owns and rides a 2013 SXF450. It is a very stout bike and all around good performer.....i'm a little jealous at times.
For AFR readings on the stock bike, it was OK to run and be safe in most areas. The mid-range was a little crispy resulting in a super torquey, quick hitting range and required more fuel addition to actually tame it down for riding on technical single track.
The top end was also in line only being slightly lean (~13.7) compared to peak power. Adding a bit of fuel to hit 13.2AFR on top picked up 1.8HP on the stock bike.
Overall drivability was the main benefit when adding the PCV on his bike.
Your data logs in the winter may show a distinct change compared to his summer time riding/tuning.

thnewell,
Dynojet's presence in the Sportbike world is immense. The Dyno truck travels to all of the AMA races, and PCV's with Autotune's are everywhere as you have observed.
The analog input is available on the front of the enclosure from what resembles a computer style terminal strip. A wire from whichever signal you are wishing to monitor is inserted into the enclosure, an analog transfer function set up (X Volts = Y Temp or Pressure), and trims occur around your specified value.
This is the "pre-emptive" method to decrease fuel injected into the system based on sensor readings.
The "post-emptive" method would be to read the combusted gases with the Wideband sensor and then usher in the Autotune trims based on what has exited the cylinder.
Either method will result in achieving your end goal of reducing the fuel delivered to the engine.

~T.J.
 
Has anyone else ran a dobeck gen 4 on a sx 450??? I ran a dobeck on my 10 kx last year and have had problems with my dobeck on the ktm. Ran the controller during the summer break in as a read only and controller would not read until above idle. Reprogrammed it and would not run very well so sent it back to figure it out and was told I had too much dielectric grease in connections......well got controller back and the controller is doing the same thing as before I sent it in. Cleaned ALL the connections....tried a NEW sensor...still does not work. Maybe it just likes the green machines. Anyone else want to try it?? Dobeck checked it out but it will not work for me. Now if randy would quit screwing around with work and let me know if this bike even needs a controller I would be greatfull. Carb. Bikes are starting to look better all the time.
 
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Ha! Done for the day. Sorry Gary... Remimber the K.I.S.S. theory. I am going to record stock numbers at altitude with all the air I can possibly give it. The goal is to see with lots of air, you can save the $ and hassle and just go do what we wanted to do in the first place..... Ride

Carb bikes are lucky, none of these issues. CFR Smart Carb for the 450F? Just wait and see.... :)

This is an EFI Bike issue. We have spent a lot of time and money with tuners and programmers for the simple system EFI bikes. The first gen-1 bikes ripped all year, tons of fun and no issues other than fuel in the oil. Totally stock... No failures either. Everything stayed in near new condition. We have focused on "reducing fuel" to help bring things closer into spec. 12.0 - 13.0 range. We have neglected the air side of the equation. If we open up the air side, like a sled, wide open and clean, that will have the same effect as reducing your fuel with a programmer. Reducing fuel with a programmer is basically "de-tuning" your engine to compensate for a lack of air. That makes a performance tuner go crazy. You prioritize air first, then adjust fuel accordingly. The big picture here is for everyone to be confident in getting a bike, simple home mod's and prep, then go ride and have fun. I will be recording all numbers as testing starts. Don't think you "have to get a programmer", you don't.

I will be running stock all season. Well, part of it anyway.... ha
 
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I'm just waiting on my new controller to show up, gman. I will certainly let you know how the Dobeck runs on my 450 SXF.
 
sneak peek.... testing in February. ooooh yah !!!! Current testing by AMA Supercross riders and other race teams. 10% HP gain, less fuel burn, and NO programming required!!! All altitudes, All temps... uh huh

APT 40MM FCR 450F Replacement.jpg
 
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