Ethanol + turbo 4 stroke? Yay? Nay?

[rotax]

Here in Denver, and through out CO about every station has 10% ethanol added at the pump.

Are there any concerns or issues with running this in a turbo 4 stroke?

I never ran it in my Big Bore 2 strokes...read some posts about it being potential cause for issue, so stayed away from it.


But whats the scoop on a 4 stroke?

 

[happyhour]

I don't see any problem with running any blend of ethanol in your sled or anything else for that matter as long as it makes your octane requirements you should be fine. Ive personally have been working with E-85 with my tapex .

 

[Lunch_Box]

You will be fine, just make sure you are running high enough octane for your boost levels. If you can find E-85 you will be able to squeeze some more hp then using premium pump gas.

 

[rotax]

great thanks for the feedback guys.

 

[zebiraross]

I don't see any problem with running any blend of ethanol in your sled or anything else for that matter as long as it makes your octane requirements you should be fine. Ive personally have been working with E-85 with my tapex .

How is that working out? Adding a grip load of fuel? I'm thinking about trying it out to, but I know I'll need some bigger injectors. It likes boost and decent timing. A buddy of mine is running E85 on his Eclipse with stock motor 30 psi and 18 deg of timing advance with a little side mount intercooler this is with a gt35. It seems as forgiving as race fuel, but you have to run about 25% more fuel.

 

[The Bullet]

Here is some interesting reading for AGE85 (and 100LL). Especially relevent for boosted applications if charge temps are high.

http://www.cgar.org/Data/Projects/47/Files/Appendix%201%20RON%20and%20MON%20Testing.doc

Some quotes from test:

standard MON test (ASTM D 2700) fixes intake manifold temperature at 300 degrees Fahrenheit. Thus, this test by its inherent design completely negates the detonation suppression properties of ethanol. As a result, MON numbers for ethanol generally are measured to be about 91 octane

there is very little temperature dependence for aviation gasoline. The R squared value for aviation gasoline is only 0.339 and the slope of the line is very small (-0.0041). In fact, the total change in MON is only about one unit. In contrast to this, AGE shows a very strong temperature dependency. The R squared value is nearly unity, and the slope of the line is much steeper (-0.05). The total change in MON ranges from 90 to 98. In fact, if one were to extend the data backwards it would suggest that as long as the intake manifold temperature did not exceed 120 degrees the octane rating of aviation grade ethanol would equal or exceed 100.

 

[happyhour]

How is that working out? Adding a grip load of fuel? I'm thinking about trying it out to, but I know I'll need some bigger injectors. It likes boost and decent timing. A buddy of mine is running E85 on his Eclipse with stock motor 30 psi and 18 deg of timing advance with a little side mount intercooler this is with a gt35. It seems as forgiving as race fuel, but you have to run about 25% more fuel.

very promising so far and yes added a lot more fuel. I am not liking the fuel delivery with the dobeck style controller with the E-85 this has probably been my biggest hang up so far had a hard time with the idle as well at wot had plenty of fuel at 12lbs and stock injectors but did not go any higher at this point on E-85. this summer I will most likely be looking at going with the Rapid bike 3 I like the idea of changing the maps with a pc vs. sending the controller in for any changes and also for the fact you can change the timing as well that is a big plus also been running ethanol in my Turbo ed v-10 super duty e-20 has been the most I have went so far in this application at the rear wheels on the dyno it made 373 hp and 585 ft-lbs, about a month I should have the engine back in it and plan on doing a E-85 tune on it at 15lbs. should be fun get to find the next week point LoL as far as the tire kickers on the e-85 this is an awesome fuel and performance you cant beat it in price. included a couple sites to check out

http://www.rune85.com/turbocobra.htm

http://www.rune85.com/

 

[zebiraross]

very promising so far and yes added a lot more fuel. I am not liking the fuel delivery with the dobeck style controller with the E-85 this has probably been my biggest hang up so far had a hard time with the idle as well at wot had plenty of fuel at 12lbs and stock injectors but did not go any higher at this point on E-85. this summer I will most likely be looking at going with the Rapid bike 3 I like the idea of changing the maps with a pc vs. sending the controller in for any changes and also for the fact you can change the timing as well that is a big plus also been running ethanol in my Turbo ed v-10 super duty e-20 has been the most I have went so far in this application at the rear wheels on the dyno it made 373 hp and 585 ft-lbs, about a month I should have the engine back in it and plan on doing a E-85 tune on it at 15lbs. should be fun get to find the next week point LoL as far as the tire kickers on the e-85 this is an awesome fuel and performance you cant beat it in price. included a couple sites to check out

http://www.rune85.com/turbocobra.htm

http://www.rune85.com/

Cool. Do you have bigger injectors? I bet you run out of injector at 12-14 psi. Or are at least 100% IDC. I know rb3 has a lot of features, but I don't think it can adjust larger injectors at idle. Unless you can control the dead time and global of a larger injector idle is going to suck. Nor will it allow you to add more fuel then a dobeck. Having timing control would be great though.

 

[happyhour]

Cool. Do you have bigger injectors? I bet you run out of injector at 12-14 psi. Or are at least 100% IDC. I know rb3 has a lot of features, but I don't think it can adjust larger injectors at idle. Unless you can control the dead time and global of a larger injector idle is going to suck. Nor will it allow you to add more fuel then a dobeck. Having timing control would be great though.

No I do not yet even at 19-20 lbs of boost this is where I have been running it so far on 110 the duty cycle was most likely at 100 % it be nice to know IPW. at 10500 rpm is probably be alarming but have not so far felt notice or seen any detonation from a jumpy value wot. By chance do you know what size the stock injectors are the flow rate lb/hr. The adjustability of the rb3 would be nice to know I emailed Dave at powderlights awhile back he replied will have more info to come I will just have to wait hopefully sometime this summer he has a good grasp on how it is working and if it will hopefully work with my application .

 

[zebiraross]

No I do not yet even at 19-20 lbs of boost this is where I have been running it so far on 110 the duty cycle was most likely at 100 % it be nice to know IPW. at 10500 rpm is probably be alarming but have not so far felt notice or seen any detonation from a jumpy value wot. By chance do you know what size the stock injectors are the flow rate lb/hr. The adjustability of the rb3 would be nice to know I emailed Dave at powderlights awhile back he replied will have more info to come I will just have to wait hopefully sometime this summer he has a good grasp on how it is working and if it will hopefully work with my application .

I don't know what cc's or lb/hr the stock injectors flow. I know some guys are using 450's for the upgrade. You can always overcome 100% IDC by cranking up the fuel pressure, but the problem you run into running higher fuel pressure is idle will suffer. Keep us updated. That's very impressive 19-20 psi of boost with E-85. I'm suprised you haven't ran lean. Do you have a wideband? What does it say at that boost level?

 

[happyhour]

I don't know what cc's or lb/hr the stock injectors flow. I know some guys are using 450's for the upgrade. You can always overcome 100% IDC by cranking up the fuel pressure, but the problem you run into running higher fuel pressure is idle will suffer. Keep us updated. That's very impressive 19-20 psi of boost with E-85. I'm suprised you haven't ran lean. Do you have a wideband? What does it say at that boost level?

sorry for the confusion but I ran 110 torco up to 19-20 lbs E-85 I have only pushed it to 12 lbs so far afr on the E-85 was 11:1 on the rich side fuel psi at 43.5 to 45

 

[zebiraross]

sorry for the confusion but I ran 110 torco up to 19-20 lbs E-85 I have only pushed it to 12 lbs so far afr on the E-85 was 11:1 on the rich side fuel psi at 43.5 to 45

Oh, that makes sense now.