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DynoTech on the Poo 800-Some thoughts

I created a thread on hcs on my thoughs on cooling the 800 down some that does not require removing the t-stat or hose reconfigure. It's along the lines of the washes in place of the t-stat that was talked about in this thread. Read it and let me know what you think or have another idea.
http://www.hardcoresledder.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=356243

Good post & interesting... First Shortstop2O, I looked info up and got part #'s confused with track lengths. The only dif in Polaris thermostats is the size of the bypass hole, because some have a front cooler others don't. I had it wrong.
I talked to Carl's Cycle about the temp and Polaris reasoning-leave it in or remove it. Here's my take on the issue....
A cold engine makes more HP as DTJim states...except a cold engine can have other negatives such as lack of combustion at low speed. Oversimplification-no thermo, boondocking in deep powder, not a good running sled-will simulate running rich becaue the engine is too cold for proper combustion. Cold engine at low speeds will not burn fuel properly....that's why Polaris uses the thermostat.
But "Meat" has just done what I was thinking about...leave some restriction so that engine temps can't get too low. A thermostat fully open restricts cooling at high flow when you need all the flow possible. Maybe the ideal would be a lower temp thermo but larger so that flow when open was still 100%.
On the plus side a cold engine makes another 2 HP as I recall. Is that worth the probability for a bog when the engine is cold? Without a thermo there is also the possibility of a cold sieze mentioned by AK or at least a slow engine warm up.
Meat, let us know how yours works.
Another thing, the lower altitudes run higher compression that creates more engine heat. Cold plentiful snow on the heat exchangers lower water coolant temps. Still wonder what effect if any all this has when you are running the sled at altitude in the snow!
 
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T stat mod

what if you pulled the stat out and drilled a few more by-pass holes thus slightly increasing the flow.
 
Rich has seen 165HP to date on prototype pipe, no re-routing of coolant lines

he's amazed how this sled is coming alive on the dyno to their pipe tests

And the sales pitch begins.....?

I'm still looking for an explantion of why the dyno results don't match real world running in the snow. Stocker peaking at 7900 RPM on the dyno....real world was more like 8200 in the snow. Call me skeptical!
 
Dragon 800

I don't know any other way to do this than to cut and paste a PM and a post from the Sled-Werx web site & DTR's last post. As I told Brent, I am not in the sled business and have no affiliation with any dealer or aftermarket company. Some of us are still confused, especially since some of the data doesn't match our experience from 2008. Last year I rode a 2008 Polaris Dragon 800 & the year before a 2007 SkiDoo Summit X, 800R. I made an earlier obsevation that most dyno reports seemed to be followed by a sales pitch. Nothing wrong with that as long as everyone understands that a dyno is a tool, nothing more. It's common knowledge that dyno/pipe data are based on assumptions and require field testing. We tend to forget that we all ride at different altitudes and one size won't fit all. A sea level exhaust system may not work well at altitude.
If asking questions is considered discrediting anyone that's not my intent. I know that my knowledge is far surpassed by those businesses providing this info.

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Hey Ron
who do you represent? your own company I take it from you post?

I could care less if you're taking a discrediting shot at myself, however Rich pretty much taught the industry how to make pipes ( truth be known )

Cheers
Brent

if you have something spectacular to provide to our clients it should maybe be on our sled division page with everyone else no? www.sled-werx.com

Took Brents invitation this AM and found the following post about the Polaris engine being discussed. No surprise that some folks reading this info were ticked off enough to cancel Polaris sled purchases.
Paste from Sled-Werx follows:
"Will be totally honest, as pumped as I was for this sled back during Snow Check, recent reliable dyno reports from both DynoTech Research and DYNOPORT did not dyno this sled well at all, in fact 10HP down from what POLARIS is still advertising on their national web site. Regardless our dragon still found it's way home so we'll do what we can to get this thing rock'n and show our clientele what 'werx'. I would imagine new Dragon 800SP owners will be receiving some help from Polaris ( in good business ) to get these sleds to the advertised 154HP Polaris is still claiming to entice sales, whether that be a re-map, a different exhaust, or whatever else it takes to make things 'right' with consumers!"
WOW-that's a lot of opinion based on real facts or a dyno tool subject to error?
Looks to me like it was 8.6 HP with 87 Octane fuel at 7900 RPM. In the West some can still buy high quality non ethanol pump fuel. Sorry, but I still need someone to explain why our Mtn sleds made power at 8200 and up, but didn't make power at 7900. I rode the 09 proto in March and it ran strong at 8200 also. Sound waves may travel at the same speed at different altitudes but the air density and pipe temps have an affect too. That's why we find temp probes in the exhaust. What about engine break-in...seemed like for about the first 250 miles the engine kept running stronger?

When we did our dyno testing it was in the mid fifties F, and the enthanol wires had no measurable effect on fuel flow, plugged or unplugged. According to our Polaris tech support, with the temp we were testing at we were in the lean mode. In cold winter weather it's 5% added or thereabouts in ethanol mode. I think I had that backwards.
We don't ride in 55 degree weather either, air density changes with elevation and also temperature and humidity. Is the Polaris fuel map "right" in the off snow conditions tested. You can adjust dyno results for these factors, not necessarily how the engine performs or how the ECU is mapped.
We ran the pipe center section temp as hot as 1100-1150 degrees F. The question is how hot is everyone's pipe center section temp when you ride? Everyone who is into performance sledding would benefit from knowing that, and knowing where his HP peaks at from cool, on takeoff to as hot as it ever gets on your longest period at WOT.
OK, but what about pipe temperature at the sensor location on the outside of the pipe? Won't that outer temp build higher than center section temps? If not, then what has Polaris set at the probe as the hot pipe limit that changes fuel and the advance curve?

During dyno testing we have the advantage of holding the engine WOT steady state at lower revs where leaner 13/1 A/F ratio occurrs, allowing CS temp to climb quickly to 850ish to begin each test, with the idea of being well over 1000 at peak revs which was our target.

From our charts you can see how stock fuel flow peaks at 113 lb/hr and close to 10/1 around the torque peak creating that camel-hump in the HP curve, and the higher you rev it the lower the fuel flow drops. The PCIII map we created flattens out the fuel curve, and drops it at peak HP to below 100 lb/hr, then remains fairly flat beyond that. By eliminating that huge pile of fuel, we get the pipe hotter, quicker which combined with two points leaner A/F ratio adds 5-10 HP depending on pipe temp that we're operating at.

Next time we test Casey's stocker I'll try to put together a chart of just where peak HP occurs, from 500 to 1200 deg F (I don't think it's possible to exceed 1200 in the field, even mountain climbing). Then all you guys can know exactly where to clutch to for max HP in any condition. The change in the speed of sound has nothing to do with altitude, just temperature so the CS temp/ HP peak RPM chart we create here at 1000 ft should apply at 10,000.
See above-air density, probe location?
As Donovan suggests, and as you see in our test data, we surely make more HP at lower coolant/ engine temps (100 vs 125) but the main benefit of 100deg F coolant for low altitude riders is avoiding detonation, keeping peak combustion chamber temps low enough to prevent the formation of those nasty active radicals even with leaner more powerful A/F ratio that we created with the PCIII. And this also prevents the very protective 09 ECU from sensing the slightest knock, pulling timing, adding fuel and further reducing HP.
For now, the only ones I know of who have ridden hard in the field while measuring the pipe CS is Bill and Donovan from Xtreme, on last years RMK800s. No sense guessing and arguing about what it is, just measure it and hopefully the temp/ HP peak RPM data we create will be extremely useful.
As I said earlier, a quality report from a quality company. The amount of detail in DTR's report is 2nd to none. The report also seems to be objective & from very qualified dyno experts that put a lot of time into this project. SLP at higher elevation dyno's peak HP & Torque more representative of what we see here riding 5-8000' & get STD adjusted HP of 154.4 at 8400, maybe 152 at 8200. Xtreme dyno's STD adjusted at 136 at 6500'. Polaris claims 154 HP!
So why is anyone confused about all of this?
It's what works on the snow that's important. The dyno is a nice tool for mod folks but that's all it is-a tool.
Normally many use torque for clutching rather than HP, DTR reported peak torque even lower, 97.6 @ 7400 & 96.7 @ 7900 & 88.6 @ 8100.
 
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And the sales pitch begins.....?

I'm still looking for an explantion of why the dyno results don't match real world running in the snow. Stocker peaking at 7900 RPM on the dyno....real world was more like 8200 in the snow. Call me skeptical!

I agree, seemed like peak rpm was all over the board. I clutched for 7900 rpm and it felt great. Didn't feel like I was leaving anything on the table.
On the other side, it seemed like most people felt 8200-8300 was better.
Is this going back to certain running issues and variances of these sleds. As stated earlier no 2 seem to be the same. Granted altitude temp and other parameters all come into play as well.
 
Good post & interesting... First Shortstop2O, I looked info up and got part #'s confused with track lengths. The only dif in Polaris thermostats is the size of the bypass hole, because some have a front cooler others don't. I had it wrong.
I talked to Carl's Cycle about the temp and Polaris reasoning-leave it in or remove it. Here's my take on the issue....
A cold engine makes more HP as DTJim states...except a cold engine can have other negatives such as lack of combustion at low speed. Oversimplification-no thermo, boondocking in deep powder, not a good running sled-will simulate running rich becaue the engine is too cold for proper combustion. Cold engine at low speeds will not burn fuel properly....that's why Polaris uses the thermostat.
But "Meat" has just done what I was thinking about...leave some restriction so that engine temps can't get too low. A thermostat fully open restricts cooling at high flow when you need all the flow possible. Maybe the ideal would be a lower temp thermo but larger so that flow when open was still 100%.
On the plus side a cold engine makes another 2 HP as I recall. Is that worth the probability for a bog when the engine is cold? Without a thermo there is also the possibility of a cold sieze mentioned by AK or at least a slow engine warm up.
Meat, let us know how yours works.
Another thing, the lower altitudes run higher compression that creates more engine heat. Cold plentiful snow on the heat exchangers lower water coolant temps. Still wonder what effect if any all this has when you are running the sled at altitude in the snow!

I will report the results when we get the snow. Got a couple other things to try to.
 
Good post & interesting... First Shortstop2O, I looked info up and got part #'s confused with track lengths. The only dif in Polaris thermostats is the size of the bypass hole, because some have a front cooler others don't. I had it wrong.
I talked to Carl's Cycle about the temp and Polaris reasoning-leave it in or remove it. Here's my take on the issue....
A cold engine makes more HP as DTJim states...except a cold engine can have other negatives such as lack of combustion at low speed. Oversimplification-no thermo, boondocking in deep powder, not a good running sled-will simulate running rich becaue the engine is too cold for proper combustion. Cold engine at low speeds will not burn fuel properly....that's why Polaris uses the thermostat.
But "Meat" has just done what I was thinking about...leave some restriction so that engine temps can't get too low. A thermostat fully open restricts cooling at high flow when you need all the flow possible. Maybe the ideal would be a lower temp thermo but larger so that flow when open was still 100%.
On the plus side a cold engine makes another 2 HP as I recall. Is that worth the probability for a bog when the engine is cold? Without a thermo there is also the possibility of a cold sieze mentioned by AK or at least a slow engine warm up.
Meat, let us know how yours works.
Another thing, the lower altitudes run higher compression that creates more engine heat. Cold plentiful snow on the heat exchangers lower water coolant temps. Still wonder what effect if any all this has when you are running the sled at altitude in the snow!

Thanks for the info Ron. I had some of the same thoughts on the RMK's vs. the short tracks concerning coolant temp. I don't think it would be near as much of an issue(if any) on the mountain sleds since there's more snow to cool the sled and running compression is less at elevation. I ride flatlands and trails around home when there's snow and then the mountains a few times a year too so I kinda have to take both types of riding into consideration. :o

I plan on buying a '09 RMK 800 155", hopefully I don't have cooling problems with the sled at low elevation. Wouldn't be a big deal to have one thermostat for low elevation and another for high elevation if it's something that ends up working for the short tracks. Just another thing to swap out along with the clutching before a trip west. :)
 
For those that are interested.

The Small block motor is about 1/2 inch shorter between centers then the old Big Block.

As I said, In a big bore situation, there is no way the SB can make as much the power as the big block if the Ign timing and BSFC are the exact same.

And I stand by my first statement, A 1997 700 RMK in stock form in the new chassis will run the guts out of the new motor.

Remember I said the 1997 RMK Motor !!!!! I dynoed one of these in stock form ( 135 hp the first pull ) But as I said, Dyno numbers are only relative to what ever you want them to be.

The 1997 RMK was a one of a kind package, No other domestic motor had the timing curve or BSFC numbers that this motor did. As a matter of fact Polaris sent out an update CDI box to tame this monster.

If you ever had a chance to drive one of these when they were new and set up right you know how hard this package ran.

This definately an awesome thread. I've been reading up on the D8 as I want this to be a good sled. Dan knows his stuff and for those that did not experience that early 700 twin it was a beast!! Our local Polaris shop had a early XC 700 that ran in our now non existant X-country river race (Fairbanks to Nenana, now used in the final leg of the Iron Dog race) in spring of 1996. That sled was a insane fast I can tell you first hand as I was able to try it myself. Anyway, this sled won the open class handily against more than a few built tripples.
 
Ron just to clarify, during dyno testing we read the pipe center section temp right off of the Polaris Digital Wrench software on a separate computer, which shows that plus coolant temp, air inlet temp, timing advance for each cylinder, and indicates knock severity and how much timing is pulled from each cylinder as a result. Great stuff.
 
great topic lets keep it going it will be interesting to see how real world conditions compare this year against dyno found performance setups:confused:
 
Here's a try at showing a graph from our test session, showing fuel flow/ HP curve difference in coolant temps, then with fuel flow leaned out to 12/1.

Drag8StFuelFlow.jpg
 
Fuel Flow

Good chart Jim. More top end power from a cooler engine seems a given.

I'm still hung up on the dyno results that show peak torque and HP at lower RPM's than we experienced with "actual sled in the snow" last year. No one wants to address the possibilities so I'll throw a few things out for discussion. As altitude changes, air density changes resulting in a different effective length of the sound waves in the exhaust. Same thing with exhaust temperature. It's optimizing these waves that replace the exhaust valve found in a 4 stroke, pushing unburned fuel back into the cyclinders until the piston closes the exhaust port.
So denser air at sea level may be one reason the DTR dyno found peak power at a lower RPM than we experienced in the field? (Change in the fuel map for 09 could be a factor but many of us had a new map last year too.) But....then we have some like AKSnowrider living at sea level and riding 2-5000' that found better performance at higher R's. (Correct Mike?) What happens if one installs a PC to lean fuel delivery and then we find that actual in the snow operation at higher R's does much of the same? Guess the answer is that you can change the PC settings.
Next factor may be low price mods ($60-$70) that most of us add so that the stock sled will breathe better. EPA noise limits = choked down intake systems. SLP sells an Air Horn and there are several options for dash vents. You can also drill some holes in the air box shelf, now recomended by SLP on some mods that will lean out stockers too(free).
And then we have the unknown of the ECU adjusting fuel delivery and timing in relation to several sensors feeding data. According to DTR the map was the same Ethanol vs non Eth. at 50 degrees but we normally ride in much colder conditions. Some locations in the US and much of Canada have access to high quality non Ethanol fuel that makes more power.
Actual results aren't too far off now-that will end this speculation.

Airbox mod-4 holes 7/8"-As far as I know this is unproven on a stocker but should provide more air at high R's.

80020CFI20PE1pdf-AdobeReader.jpg


Larger SLP air horn on the left


P1000618.jpg


Dash Vent-2 Cool

2009Dragon003-1.jpg
 
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Tach calibration could be a factor here as well. Engine load may change as well, I would say the engine is being fully loaded on the dyno. Clutching set ups tend to be more free IMO. I have found clutching for 150-200 rpms over the dyno result on a polaris has served me well.
 
Good chart Jim. More top end power from a cooler engine seems a given.

I'm still hung up on the dyno results that show peak torque and HP at lower RPM's than we experienced with "actual sled in the snow" last year. No one wants to address the possibilities so I'll throw a few things out for discussion. As altitude changes, air density changes resulting in a different effective length of the sound waves in the exhaust. Same thing with exhaust temperature. It's optimizing these waves that replace the exhaust valve found in a 4 stroke, pushing unburned fuel back into the cyclinders until the piston closes the exhaust port.
So denser air at sea level may be one reason the DTR dyno found peak power at a lower RPM than we experienced in the field? (Change in the fuel map for 09 could be a factor but many of us had a new map last year too.) But....then we have some like AKSnowrider living at sea level and riding 2-5000' that found better performance at higher R's. (Correct Mike?) What happens if one installs a PC to lean fuel delivery and then we find that actual in the snow operation at higher R's does much of the same? Guess the answer is that you can change the PC settings.
Next factor may be low price mods ($60-$70) that most of us add so that the stock sled will breathe better. EPA noise limits = choked down intake systems. SLP sells an Air Horn and there are several options for dash vents. You can also drill some holes in the air box shelf, now recomended by SLP on some mods that will lean out stockers too(free).
And then we have the unknown of the ECU adjusting fuel delivery and timing in relation to several sensors feeding data. According to DTR the map was the same Ethanol vs non Eth. at 50 degrees but we normally ride in much colder conditions. Some locations in the US and much of Canada have access to high quality non Ethanol fuel that makes more power.
Actual results aren't too far off now-that will end our speculation.

I think you are onto something here Ron, I too think the dyno is missing something that we see in real in the field conditions.I know I fought my sled the first part of last winter running at the rpm's that slp recommended, but once I stumbled onto raising them the actual performance difference was very noticable.my sled is typical as far as what an average joe would do for mods(slp single, full slp vent kit, slp intake kit, carls clutch kit, and 19/42 gears) all on a 08 D-8 163.I run pump premium(90 on the sticker) and no reflash although the dealer offered me the 3/08 flash(3 others with the slp single all melted down right after the reflash)for this year I am adding vf-3's and if I can get it the 09 programming otherwise I may send my stuff to carls and do the porting as Ron has(with carls programming).I can see how temps would affect hp..and I think gutting the tstat body might be the answer but actual snow testing might be needed to verify results.I am thinking that fuel octane is really playing a big part in this at lower alt's It sounds like this sled retards timing and richens up big time at the slightest load at low alt...especially with mods...
 
To be more specific, the 125 deg coolant temp gave us 10.5/1, 95 gave us 11.0/1 and with fuel pulled out it was 12.5/1.

Also someone on this thread questioned the placement of the Center Section ex temp gauge we were using for reference, which is an excellent point. In this case we used the stock CS probe with readings taken from the ECU. This probe measures ex temp at the very outside of the center section which is probably cooler than the average temp of the gas throughout the pipe which is what determines where the HP peak will occur on the stock D8 engine, nothing to do with backpressure changing at high altitude. The ex gas nearest the probe is probably being cooled by the cooler steel, and to compound that I think the probe is closed-element which further delays reporting temperature change as it rises.

I got to thinking about that after looking at this data for the 100th time I recall that our Digital Wrench CS readings readings were nearly identical for all three scenarios, which is impossible in reality.

I think the best way for us to measure pipe CS temp if we want to use that as a reference for clutching is an open element EGT probe next to the stock probe. Ideally, we would use an open element probe long enough to reach, say, 1/3 of the way across the CS which is probably average temp there (hottest dead center, coolest at the outside?), plus maybe the Ex gas velocity is higher there, making probe reaction even quicker?

If we create an accurate CST/ HP peak RPM chart, then a simple single probe Digatron EGT/ Tach unit will datalog and replay this information. To clutch for maximum acceleration in good traction conditions, you should be shifting at the engine's HP peak from 400 degrees CS temp (maybe 7600) at clutch engagement to maybe 1250 on the longest run (maybe 8300) (steel turns red at 1250). Knowing exactly where the HP peak occurs makes that possible.

All hottroders should have a wideband A/F ratio gauge to make sure you have best fuel flow for gas quality/ conditions/ airflow adding mods, and then have a pipe CS temp gauge to make sure you're accelerating at the RPM where best HP is happening.
 
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That stlye of chart would be great! Building rpms the futher along the run is, works great...Good stuff Jim! I will be shooting for around 8000 on the start and ending around 8350 or so with my set up in the flatlands.
 
Got your message Ron and thanks

nice to see that guys regardless of difference of opinion can simply get along and post over here without being insulted/bashed or attacked, and that posts STAY ON TOPIC

Pretty much the bottom line with this sled as most of us know by now is that they were shipped VERY rich, more of a safety blanket by the manufacturer ( in my own opinion ) to cover all the different gases that we see from Coast to Coast. As Rich mentioned this morning 91 octane in Ontario may be completely different than 91 Octane in Utah, or Maine etc. To the average consumer that still means they're going to receive a sled that advertises for 154HP but pretty much delivers closer 145HP because the sled is so rich. Yes there are allot of frustrated snow check clients and with good reason, however for some of us who have the means to make adjustments this sled has also proved it can provide more than what was advertised. Personally I'm for the 'little guy' and will always be so out of all the information that has come to the surface from many post threads in the last month the 'little guy' now has something to actually 'work with'. We'll continued to provide the most current information possible so everyone can make a sound decision on what products 'if any' are best for them for this particular model.

hope that makes sense while we wait for some more testing to come in from Rich, as well as Jim's ongoing tests

One more thing, in talks with Jim today at DTR Jim made a good point about revieling prototype pipe HP, in that although Rich may have seen 165HP as the highest # to date during testing, we should wait to see the STAMPED versions of those pipes on the dyno when we can provide a chart - I agree so thanks Jim. That information came from an experience Jim had in the past so we thank him for looking out for us all.

Wish you all the best!
Spenc
 
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