Diamond Drive secondary springs

[freak007]

In preparation for clutching my 2010 M8, I've been doing alot of reading. It seems aftermarket spring options designed for the Diamond Drive secondary are pretty limited. Obviously, I can use factory AC springs in my secondary, I know some people are using 'doo springs, and I've recently heard that Team springs can be used as well.

Any other options out there? Can anyone confirm that Team springs will work? Has anyone measured the spring installed and full shift heights in the 10.4 secondary?

 

[hd4rob]

Speedwerx has a full assortment of H5 alloys for the diamond drive secondary. https://www.speedwerxstore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=870

 

[kiliki]

Yup^^^^ this

 

[freak007]

I have been able to find some springs that may work. Speedwerx, EPI, D&D, AC, Fett Bros, Goodwin, and 'Doo.

However, Goodwin (Doo spring) says their springs won't work with 07-13 stock AC helixes. Some of the EPI springs are listed for 05-06 and measured at 2.2 & 1.1, others are listed as 07-11 and measured at 2.875 and 1.675. All the Fett Bros springs are measured at 2.2 and 1.1, does this mean they are for the early models only?

What changed from 06 to 07 for there to be a change in springs? What does it take to use the Doo/Goodwin spring on a 07+ helix? Does using an aftermarket helix affect what will fit?

In addition, I can find no information on what height Goodwin and D&D rate their springs at...

 

[kiliki]

05 and 06 was an open ended helix with a large white adjustable end. the 07-09 was a closed ended helix without a notch for reverse. and 09 up was a closed ended helix with reverse notch as now the sleds had engine reverse.
all the helixes will bolt into the the clutches.
the stock 10 and up orange spring with 2 black spacers installed in the spring cup was a decent set up.
it all depends on alt and power adders.

 

[freak007]

So, it seems that the Goodwin/Doo and some of the Fett Bros and EPI springs "won't work" with the closed end helix... Any idea why?

I picked up a D&D helix, it has the reverse notch, but appears to be open ended, does it matter which style spring I use?

The AC springs seem to be the same regardless of year...

I never had to deal with this nonsense with my older Poos or Cats

 

[mbcat]

So, it seems that the Goodwin/Doo and some of the Fett Bros and EPI springs "won't work" with the closed end helix... Any idea why?

I picked up a D&D helix, it has the reverse notch, but appears to be open ended, does it matter which style spring I use?

The AC springs seem to be the same regardless of year...

I never had to deal with this nonsense with my older Poos or Cats

Cat org or abandon all the bs & just run x-1 kit

 

[kiliki]

why are your trying to re clutch your sled when you don't really know what the options are? do you know something the others do not?




what are your power adders and alt?

 

[freak007]

why are your trying to re clutch your sled when you don't really know what the options are? do you know something the others do not?




what are your power adders and alt?

Right... because you came out of the womb knowing what the various clutching options were for any sled...


I think the answer is fairly obvious. I'm not satisfied with the stock clutching. I know what I'd like to accomplish, and I have a pretty solid understanding of how to accomplish it. I'm trying to identify what parts could possibly get me there. I'm also trying to understand why certain manufacturers say certain springs won't work with certain helixes.

I'd say those are reasonable questions to ask, and don't call for a snarky response.

 

[freak007]

Cat org or abandon all the bs & just run x-1 kit

I've heard alot of good feedback on the X-1 setup, from the trail riders, but haven't heard a whole lot from people running at altitude or off trail... I'm not sure I'm ready to take that leap just yet.

 

[mbcat]

I've heard alot of good feedback on the X-1 setup, from the trail riders, but haven't heard a whole lot from people running at altitude or off trail... I'm not sure I'm ready to take that leap just yet.

I'm not a salesman just giving my opinion , I'm not at elevation but don't ride any trails. Cross country & deep swamps. X-1 keeps you right on the power at all times . Just need to run a harder (046) belt as it will cup the face of the softer 060 & not shift consistant.

 

[mbcat]

I'm not a salesman just giving my opinion , I'm not at elevation but don't ride any trails. Cross country & deep swamps. X-1 keeps you right on the power at all times . Just need to run a harder (046) belt as it will cup the face of the softer 060 & not shift consistant.

Also check magside mount, float adj sec & set up deflection so track creeps at idle

 

[CATSLEDMAN1]

dd secondary springs

one reason there are not a lot of spring options for the DD secondary is lots of different spring will not improve your sled clutching with this secondary.

REASON WHY. If you put a camera on this secondary and ride around for a couple of hours in lots of conditions what you will see on replay is a clutch shifting ALL THE TIME.

Older early 2000 and back sleds have secondaries that shift in jerks and steps and different helix/spring combinations may get the jerks and steps closer to your preference.

The DD won't do different with all those helix angles, its a dead end.

What the DD will respond favorably to is spring pressure,.....IF THE SLED IS GEARED FOR THE TYPE OF TERRAIN IT IS USED IN.

All the M7 and early M8 are too high geared for the DD secondary to work correctly if you ride up and down hills in deep snow. Stock the gearing overpowers the secondary, M1000 worst case. No spring or helix combo will get you where clutching is correct/feels right/works right.

If you gear an M sled like the last years of this series, it allows you to adjust spring pressure for upshift and back shift and adjust it in very gradual steps and adjust it for daily riding if your really care.

When I had M customers wanting to improve sled performance my first suggestion was " lets clutch it correctly", then you will be able to see if the pipe or can or porting or big bore was an improvement. Living here in Western Montana you are always at the bottom of a hill looking up, so if you want to ride up that, we have to start with correct gearing.

Once proper gearing was installed:
2005 open end 36 hellix
after market end plate to lock the white nut and orange cat spring with the white adjuster screwed in to have 10mm of clearance from white nut to end plate.

Then lets take a little ride. Stop, have the customer put half a turn in on the white nut...........say nothing and ride for 15 minutes. Repeat process 3 or 4 times. You will hit the area of instant throttle response where the track seems hooked to the throttle like a crisply running dirt bike. Then as you keep tightening the spring with the white nut you will find your self going right past the really nice running you have likely never experienced on a sled.

05-010 I used the same parts. On ebay I sold all the funky helix's and springs and kits customer has bought and thrown in randomlly hoping for the perfect clutching. When I sold my shop I hauled a couple of boxes of encapsulated DD helix's and a pile of M1000 DD gears to recycling.

Once you get the DD secondary working as designed, now weight profile can make big changes in upshift. Where you concentrate the weight on heel or toes of the weight is noticeable.

An 05 M6 or M7 with good clutching will glide right by the 07-09 M8 with the funky encapsualted helix and no chance of adjustment.

Thats my experience on the M series. I started riding snow bikes and I have no idea how the new cats run ?

 

[freak007]

I'm not a salesman just giving my opinion , I'm not at elevation but don't ride any trails. Cross country & deep swamps. X-1 keeps you right on the power at all times . Just need to run a harder (046) belt as it will cup the face of the softer 060 & not shift consistant.

Good to know. I think you're the first I've heard a review from that is running it off trail. It is something I've considered, but at this point I'd rather stick that money into improving the durability of the primary...

 

[freak007]

one reason there are not a lot of spring options for the DD secondary is lots of different spring will not improve your sled clutching with this secondary.

REASON WHY. If you put a camera on this secondary and ride around for a couple of hours in lots of conditions what you will see on replay is a clutch shifting ALL THE TIME.

Older early 2000 and back sleds have secondaries that shift in jerks and steps and different helix/spring combinations may get the jerks and steps closer to your preference.

The DD won't do different with all those helix angles, its a dead end.

What the DD will respond favorably to is spring pressure,.....IF THE SLED IS GEARED FOR THE TYPE OF TERRAIN IT IS USED IN.

All the M7 and early M8 are too high geared for the DD secondary to work correctly if you ride up and down hills in deep snow. Stock the gearing overpowers the secondary, M1000 worst case. No spring or helix combo will get you where clutching is correct/feels right/works right.

If you gear an M sled like the last years of this series, it allows you to adjust spring pressure for upshift and back shift and adjust it in very gradual steps and adjust it for daily riding if your really care.

When I had M customers wanting to improve sled performance my first suggestion was " lets clutch it correctly", then you will be able to see if the pipe or can or porting or big bore was an improvement. Living here in Western Montana you are always at the bottom of a hill looking up, so if you want to ride up that, we have to start with correct gearing.

Once proper gearing was installed:
2005 open end 36 hellix
after market end plate to lock the white nut and orange cat spring with the white adjuster screwed in to have 10mm of clearance from white nut to end plate.

Then lets take a little ride. Stop, have the customer put half a turn in on the white nut...........say nothing and ride for 15 minutes. Repeat process 3 or 4 times. You will hit the area of instant throttle response where the track seems hooked to the throttle like a crisply running dirt bike. Then as you keep tightening the spring with the white nut you will find your self going right past the really nice running you have likely never experienced on a sled.

05-010 I used the same parts. On ebay I sold all the funky helix's and springs and kits customer has bought and thrown in randomlly hoping for the perfect clutching. When I sold my shop I hauled a couple of boxes of encapsulated DD helix's and a pile of M1000 DD gears to recycling.

Once you get the DD secondary working as designed, now weight profile can make big changes in upshift. Where you concentrate the weight on heel or toes of the weight is noticeable.

An 05 M6 or M7 with good clutching will glide right by the 07-09 M8 with the funky encapsualted helix and no chance of adjustment.

Thats my experience on the M series. I started riding snow bikes and I have no idea how the new cats run ?

Alot of good information here. It's starting to make sense to me now...

With your description I pulled the parts diagram for the early VS late secondary clutches so I could get a better understanding of what you were talking about. I didn't realize that the "open" helix actually had a removable cover and a preload adjustment nut. The spring goes over a "stub" on the enclosed helix, it goes inside a cup on in the open helix. This is why the smaller diameter Goodwin (and ski-doo) springs "won't work" on the enclosed helix. I imagine the stub on the enclosed helix could probably be turned down to clear the smaller springs. This would open up a whole new world of spring rates available for the late helixes....

You mention an aftermarket end plate... Any in particular you reccomend?
Looking at the picture of the helix I bought (have not recieved yet), it appears the adjuster nut is there, but I don't see any mounting holes for the end cap. Is the cap still used on this style helix? If not, where is the outer bushing? Is there a spanner wrench used to turn the adjuster? I'd imagine at lower spring rates a flathead screwdriver could be used...

Also, couldn't the black shims inside the enclosed helix be used to incrementally adjust preload? Obviously you wouldn't have the same resolution as the threaded adjuster, but it is better than nothing...

 

[mbcat]

Buy a new primary , 911 cover & have it balanced. The open helixs use a Dalton or bdx adj end cap with the bushing in it. Get your secondary rebuilt by Mel(formula x-1) Can order x-1 same time or run whatever combo you like. His secondary repair makes these things shift properly. No more cocking & binding on dsmn hub.